help with a combi boiler

Discussion in 'Plumbers' Talk' started by Turtletom100, Nov 23, 2014.

  1. Turtletom100

    Turtletom100 Member

    So the story goes a little bit like this and I have a few questions I really hope someone can answer before Monday. Sorry I don't know all the lingo

    From about March this year the boiler was temperamental sometimes it would heat water (go into a second burn phase with all the flames burning, if that makes sense) other times it wouldn't gradually this got to a point where it would heat water for 5 minutes then stop then kick back on and off etc. To a point where it wouldn't work at all. Well I had an enine er from heatcraft in chigwell come out and had a look took the fan out from the top of the boiler cleaned it and put it back in. The boiler seemed to work fine without the cover on and the bottom screws done up on the silver plate behind the cover. As soon as he done all the screws up it stopped again so he ended up leaving the bottom screws out the silver plate and put the cover back on and said that will be alright for time being this was in about September.

    He come back a week or so later replaced the fan unit and it made some awful noise he claimed it would because it was a new fan so I believed him. Well after he went it has being fine had the heating in several times one time I heard dripping and had water dripping out all over the worktop looked at the pressure and it was up to about 3 bar so just put it down to pressure being high and leaking to stop the boiler exploding. Still made a racket though and aslong as the heating was on no longer than 20 minutes a time never got up to 3 bar so didn't leak well woke up Friday and had no hot water realised the boiler wasn't going into its second burn so rung heatcraft up and they tried saying it was the pressure valve. I explained that the pressure was sitting on 1 and only leaked once when the pressure reached 3 bar so it must be a faulty fan after a bit of a Rowe she is sending some one out Monday and if it is the fan they will replace it buy if not they won't.

    Now the questions I have (there's a few)

    1 - should he have left the inside cover with missing screws as I thought this should be a sealed unit so if there are any gas leaks it don't leak out.

    2- with regards to leaking water should I have a pipe going outside somewhere for the water (it smelt quite acidic)

    3 - if the boiler hasn't lost all pressure (still sitting on 1 bar) can the issue be the pressure valve?

    4 - if it is the pressure valve would this stop my hot water and heating or just heating?

    5 - does it sound like the fan is stopping the boiler going in to its second burn mode or could it be something else

    6 - should the fan be making noises from new. I have uploaded 2 videos one off the dripping water and 1 off the noisy fan

    Boiler:

    Boiler 1:

    Sorry about all the questions and I can't help with the model all I know is it is OLD (all analog, no digital display and the timer is analog with click in notches around the 24 hour clock) and is a glowplug boiler.
     
  2. Hi TTom.

    I am not a pro, so hopefully they'll be on today to answer your points fully.

    Some things, however, I am pretty sure of:

    1) IF this inside cover is the one that seals the combustion chamber, then I think you know the answer already - of course it should be sealed. Your boiler draws in air from outside by the use of that fan, and exhausts it outside as well. The combustion chamber should be sealed. Of course I cannot comment on just how safe or unsafe what he did was, 'cos I'm not a pro. BUT, if the boiler stopped working when he fully sealed the cover, and his solution was to leave it partly unsealed, I'd have concerns. But a pro will need to advise fully.

    2) I don't want to jump to conclusions. If your boiler is a condensing type, then it will be producing acidic water. However, it might also be 'system' water that you see dripping which could also smell funny as it has chemicals in it. You'll only see 'system' water if there is a 'proper' leak or if the safety pressure valve opens and there is a leak in the safety discharge pipework and joints which should be directing all this ejected water outside.

    If your boiler is a 'non-condensing' type, there should just be a single 15mm copper pipe leading outside and pointing downwards. (This should only release water if your pressure reaches 3 bar, which it obviously has at some point). If your boiler is a 'condensing' type, then there should also be a 22mm plastic pipe leading outside to a drain to dribble away acidic water produced when the boiler runs, but fair chance your boiler isn't this type.

    Either way, of course your boiler shouldn't drip at all! There must be a safety discharge pipe fitted, because if there wasn't your boiler would have GUSHED water out when it hit 3 bar that time - high pressure hot water, NASTY! So my guess is that there IS a pipe, but it just leaks at a joint under the boiler. (Other joints and fittings can also leak inside your boiler, especially when the pressure hits 3 bar - I can't tell what it is from your video).

    3) The main 'issue' with your boiler isn't the pressure safety valve; that seems to be working fine. Ie: the pressure goes to 3 bar due to a fault, and the valve opens. The pressure drops, and the valve closes again (But don't be surprised if it continues to 'drip' after this 'cos they do that... :( ) But, all that water should end up outside your house.

    4) If your pressure drops to, say, below a half-bar (0.5bar), then I think both functions of your boiler would stop. Newer boilers will fully shut down and flash a warning; older ones like yours might try and keeping goin'! Either way, if the pressure is between just below 1 bar and anything up to 3 bar (although that's too high - and is when the safety valve opens), your boiler should be running ok. If it doesn't, it's because of something else.

    5) No idea. I suspect something else is also amiss as you have pressure problems and the fan has been replaced but your boiler still isn't working. It's unlikely to be two faulty fans - surely?!

    6) No. As in 'NO'. That's NO! The guy is an a***ole.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2014
  3. Add a photo of the whole boiler, and hopefully its make and model will be recognised.
     
  4. A word on system 'pressure'. This should be filled to around 1 bar when the system is cold, and this should only rise a small amount - if any - when it's hot (say to 1.5 bar.)

    If the pressure is fluctuating more than this - and it obviously has at some point - that would indicate that your 'expansion vessel' (a flat or round cylinder inside your boiler, often painted red or brown) is either faulty or needs re-pressuring with air.

    So, what does the pressure read, both cold and hot?
     
  5. Turtletom100

    Turtletom100 Member

    Hi devils advocate

    firstly thankyou for your detailed response you are a star.

    Right well start backwards. :)

    I have found the model as my other half reminded me that there is a manual in with the paper work and that it is a Glow worm Compact 75p

    I have taken picture anyway which also shows the pressure cold which is 1 bar. I can't tell you hot temperature as the boiler doesn't kick in to heat up water or the heating but when it does after having it continuously for about 20 minutes it would rise to 3 bar.
    This is a image of the boiler
    [​IMG]

    This is a image of the current pressure
    [​IMG]

    This is a video of the boiler when you run hot water you can hear the boiler kick in and see the pilot light but it's not clicking the second time which normally makes the flames inside the boiler all light.

    Boiler:

    I didn't think that the screw inside should be left out when the guy that done it left it out but he said it should be fine just for temporary measures. But was concerned as I have 2 infants aswell ad my partner and myself living in the property but he is gas safe registered so I just allowed it.

    The smell of the water dripping is exactly the same smell as what the radiators have in them as I allowed water to come out where you take air out the radiators (sorry I don't know the teminology) but either way it was the same smell on the cloth as the water that dripped out the bottom of the system.

    The boiler has never dropped to 0.5 bar and even now is sitting at 1 bar though it is not functioning. And I have never had water gushing only dripping that once but I put it down to pressure being 3 bar and the boiler was dripping water for that reason. I have only used the heating several times as the house has being reasonably warm without heating but when I did use it I would make sure it was only on for 15 minutes then turn it off because of this reason.

    I would imagine there is an underlying problem somewhere with the boiler for it to be reaching 3 bar within 20 minutes of being on continuous use anyway.

    As you can hear in the video above the fan isn't kicking on (as it's not making that awful noise no more) I would imagine this is also part of the problem as when it wasn't working 4 months ago it was doing exactly the same thing you can hear the boiler hum but not click to the second burn. Again though I would imagine there would be a reason as to why this is happening.

    The guy I have come to do the services/gas safety inspections is the same one for 4 years now and I always thought he was dodgy because on the gas safety inspection I was under the impression he should be checking the outside flue (if that's the right term) to check the levels of gas exiting the boiler and make sure all is workikg well until this year when I pressured him into doing it this has never being done either and obviously this now aswell again is making me wonder. I have checked with gas safe and he is registered and after rowing with heatcraft Friday he is apparently their supervisor. I would have hoped that if this is true he would give the boiler a good going over and checked everything was working hunky dory i.e leave the boiler on for 15 minutes to make sure there was no other problems before packing his bag and just leaving.

    Once again thanks for your replies
     
  6. TTom, your pressure being 1 bar cold rising quickly to 3 bar hot is a classic symptom of the expansion vessel requiring re-pressurising, or it having a burst diaphragm. And, when the pressure reaches the safety limit of 3 bar (which it shouldn't do normally), the safety release valve opens and allows the excess water to discharge out the 15mm copper pipe wot leads outside, hopefully pointing downwards close to the ground (so no-one gets sprayed with boiling water...)

    So, it looks as tho' your exp vessel needs attention. This could be a simple job - pumping it back up with air - or it requiring replacement. (If it's knack'ed, it's often simpler and cheaper to fit a 'remote' expansion vessel to a pipe somewhere else on your system.)

    Was the engineer who came out aware of the pressure issues? I'm thinking he wasn't, 'cos he would have had to sort that.

    Your combi is a 'sealed', 'unvented', system. This means that the water going around and around your boiler and radiators is the same water, and it has chemicals in it to prevent corrosion - that's the smell from the dripping water, which is the same as the smell from the rad water. This is not 'acidic'. Just smelly.

    So, when your pressure reaches the safety level of 3bar, the valve opens and allows the excess pressure/water to discharge out that 15mm pipe and outside. However, it looks as tho' that pipe's joint inside the boiler is dripping a bit. Or perhaps it's a different item that's dripping with this excess pressure - but that needs to be examined on site.


    Ok, this is where you stand; right beside a non-functioning boiler. Boom boom. (Er, I don't mean boom boom because it's going to go 'boom.. I mean 'boom boom' as Basil Brush would go... @@@tumbeweed@@@)..)

    (More to come - I need to put the tatties in t'oven...)
     
  7. Blugger - potatoes over-boiled prior to roasting.... :(

    Anyways, TTom, bottom line is you boiler doesn't work.

    Soooooo, what you need to do is get these shysters out again to sort it. And, when they do, and they find it had nothing to do with the fan, you ask them to refund the previous bill.

    If they don't, you have two options; one is to deduct that amount from their new invoice and pay the balance, or - two - pay them that bill - and then sue them for the first lot.

    Use either moneyclaim.gov or else the small claims track of your county court. In either case you are almost certain to win because (a) they replaced a part that wasn't faulty. (b) They replaced it with a part that made a hellish noise - that the fitter tried to pass off with a blatant lie, and (c) they left the sealed combustion chamber unsealed - whilst claiming it would be 'ok for temporary measures'.

    Faced with that, I doubt they'd attend the hearing and listen while you took them apart before a judge.

    That is assuming, of course, that the fan wasn't at fault initially. Which I cannot say, of course.

    If they come out again but still don't fix, I understand you are now entitled to go elsewhere (before, you had to give them 3 chances...)

    You then sue them - and you will win.

    And it's easy.


    BUT - first give them a chance :)
     
  8. Turtletom100

    Turtletom100 Member

    Thanks again for replying :)

    Sorry about the tatoes (wish I could perfect fluffy roasties lol)

    Back to the non working boiler :-(

    I have had a read on that forum/link and they also mention the fan being a possible issue and as it did work all be it the fan sounded terrible I am wondering if it is "partly" the fan but I have being unfortunate and the fan wasn't working correctly when the new one was fitted as it was heating up water/heating fine. But and here's the big but because he didn't give the heating a 15/20 minute test (I suppose he don't have to do this and just wanted to get to his next job asap) he wouldn't have seen the pressure rising rapidly to 3 bar which like you say is probably the expansion vessel then on top of this a leaky joint somewhere which is causing the dripping when it should be exiting outside.

    It appears if this is the case that it is going to require a fair bit of work.

    The guy that came out wouldn't have being aware of the pressure as I wasn't until it dripped water the first time (being about 6 weeks ago when heating was on for about 20 minutes or so and I heard dripping)

    Well this is going to be fun as I am not a home owner I am a private tenant with a landlord who fails to respond to myself. So this is down to her but I can not contact her hence why I went straight to the company who undertook the work and obviously they could not disclose everything. But are sending someone out to have a look tommorow. Because I haven't being able to get hold of my landlord and neither has the company who undertake the work they can't fit new parts willy nilly until my landlord authorises payments. I could by all means pay for the boiler to repaired and personally bill my landlord but that will cause all sorts of issues. I have contacted my local housing standards and explained the situation to them and explained I have 2 kids one is 1 years old and the other is 3 and they have agreed that if the landlord they can send a contractor out and repair/replace the boiler and bill the landlord as she is obviously breaking the law with regards to making sure the tenants live in a heated property with hot water.

    Thankyou for your help I will be questioning the guy tommorow with my new knowledge (thankyou :))nd ask him a few questions and see what he has to say about the situation aswell. My hands are tied to a certain extent but in the same breath I will do my upmost to make sure there is some sort of an outcome.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
  9. Argh - a different scenario. Who paid the last bill?

    Please bear in mind that tenants have MUCH better protection these days. Landlords can not mess them about or threaten them with eviction if the tenant has a legitimate complaint.

    This is a good site; http://www.property118.com/ Largely there for the benefits of landlords, but are very sympathetic to tenants who are wrong-done by, as you seem to be. (They seemingly want to be 'good' landlords...)

    Anyways, back to t'boiler; the 'pressure issue' and the potential 'fan' issue are different things - they are NOT connected. I simply don't know what is preventing your boiler from working properly. BUT, I can say with fair certainty that you have a 'pressure' issue - and that's down to the exp vessel.

    However, if your boiler sits 'happily' at 1 bar when cold, then it should fire up and behave normally, at least to begin with. Since it isn't doing this, there is something else amiss.

    Tricky situation. You should really be reporting this to the landlord - and then forcing him to act if he doesn't. You need better advice about this - please visit your local CAB.
     
    Turtletom100 likes this.
  10. Turtletom100

    Turtletom100 Member

    The last bill should he paid via the landlord that's why I mean my hands are tied but the landlord who is a woman is unobtainable this year my gas safety inspection was 6-8 weeks overdue and after speaking with heatcraft they said they had sent numerous letters saying it was coming to an end before it had and also after it had to say it had expired but didn't have any communication back.

    I have other issues with the landlord again being unobtainable with regards to landlord inspection which has being taken out once in just over 4 and a half years, deposit is no longer protected via deposit scheme and again after speaking with them they informed me that they send out letters prior and after this happens to allow the landlord to extend the period what again have being ignored. I am loosing my patience with her now and will definitely be looking on that site you just sent. I have reported her to housing standards who will now also chase her up and make her aware they have being advised there is an issue with the boiler and she needs to rectify it and if she ignores them then they will send some one out and bill her then if she ignores that I'd imagine they will sue her for negligence and failure to pay.

    The boiler is happily sitting but is not attempting to fire up. Exactly back to where I was before the fan was replaced. We will see what the guy has to say tommorow when he comes to have a look at it.
    The main thing is I have a bit more of an understanding as to what parts are called and to a certain extent do. I have a strong backbone so will argue but like I say my hands are tied to a certain extent and it isn't really my problem (though it is a problem I have) to get this sorted. It is down to the landlord to get it fixed immediately as there is no hot water or heating and infants in the house.

    Once again thanks for your advice and links to the sites really is appreciated.
     
  11. Turtletom100

    Turtletom100 Member

    I have had a quick skim over property118.com but it looks like this is more aimed at landlords and not tenants who are not getting the right treatmen. Shall I just make a thread on there and see what happens?
     
  12. YES!

    As I said, it is a "landlord's" site, but I have seen threads on there by tenants, and they have been treated very sympathetically and good advice given. Essentially, what I understand is it's a 'good' landlord's site and is there to promote best practice. From what I've read, they hate landlords like wot your appears to be.

    Post a thread, explain you are a tenant with two young kids (a bit of extra sympathy won't go amiss...) with a faulty boiler and a landlord who cannot be contacted.

    Remember this is a 'landlord' site, so don;t bother with detail about the boiler, but DO mention everything about the lack of deposit protection etc etc etc. (I understand that's pretty serious).

    Ask what you should do now. They'll probably point you in the direction of one of their solicitors who specialise in this area, and hopefully it'll be 'no win no fee', so no cost to you.

    I remember reading a thread from a tenant before on there, and these people HATE rubbish landlords.

    Keep us posted.
     
  13. Turtletom100

    Turtletom100 Member

    Ok thankyou again for all your help with regards to the boiler and this site I will make a thread in a bit on there. :) yes you are spot on the deposit not being protected is fun able up to 3 times the value of the deposit itself. This is frowned against as it was a service that the government bought in some years ago now to stop landlords spending deposits and not re paying them to their tenants. Cheers for all your advice. And I will post the outcome of tommorow on here when he has left :)
     
  14. The protected deposit is a legal requirement, and for a landlord not to do so is - I believe - very serious.

    Good luck :)
     
  15. 66Deaf'n'Dumber

    66Deaf'n'Dumber New Member

    If your deposit is not held in a deposit guarantee scheme you could be due compensation. There are very heavy fines for landlords who don't hild deposits securely. Basically it is theft.
    I would get some legal advice on this.
     

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