Applying regulation 521.11.201 in a domestic property...

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Haggardandmiserable, Dec 1, 2015.

  1. Haggardandmiserable

    Haggardandmiserable New Member

    Two sparks recently surveyed the property with a view to quoting for a rewire (3 bed semi) - both guys made me aware of the recent'ish addition to BS7671 (Regulation 521.11.201), to ensure safety in escape routes under fire conditions. They explained this means fire resistant cable fixings must be used in the voids above ceilings in those areas, when carrying out the rewire.

    One guy stated the escape route in the house is the hallway & landing area, because it's a 'designated' exit from the house - while the remaining rooms are not escape routes.

    The second guy advised downstairs rooms with a doorway to the outside are also escape routes - in this house there is a kitchen back door and patio doors off the dining room onto the back garden - therefore 3 'escape routes' exist.

    Given that building regs state windows should be proportioned to allow for 'means of escape', my view is that all rooms in the house are potential 'escape routes'!

    Which spark is giving the correct advice?
     
  2. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Unless your ceilings are suspended it's not really something that would matter in a domestic as most ceilings are plaster or pasterboard so would be fire resistant anyway. It's more to do with large industrial locations with lots of workers where cables are held up by cheapo plastic ties above suspended ceilings. They melt easily and "drop" the cable. It's all a bit pointless imo as does not apply to low voltage cables, like network cabling, which is more likely to trip you up than a bit of swa if it's run in massive bundles. Anyway, an escape route is an escape route and no BS applies afaik.
     
  3. peter palmer

    peter palmer Screwfix Select

    I think the only people that will take any notice of it are the pen pushers that are stuck up their own ****.
     
  4. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Some fireman got tangled in a load of cable and burnt to death. Awful business but how many fatal RTA's are there every day? Lower the speed limit and there would be uproar. Same with the railways, remember after that crash outside Paddington, Prescott said no expense spared on fitting ATC, then they checked the costs...did it happen? Did it ****.
     
  5. Haggardandmiserable

    Haggardandmiserable New Member

    The first guy advised me that he'd have to use buckle clip type fixings for cable in the loft and first floor void, where there is hall and landing below...said metal fixings are expensive and take longer to fix etc etc. So when the second guy dropped by, I mentioned the fire safety/escape route aspect of a rewire and it was only then he advised 3 rooms are escape routes! (I doubt he would've mentioned it if I hadn't).

    Yes the ceilings are standard plasterboard and skim, so 30+ min fire resistance, as far as I'm aware.

    Is it fair to say I don't need to be concerned about fire resistant cable fixings in a rewire like this one?
     
  6. Rulland

    Rulland Screwfix Select

    I was told by my NICEIC assessor that basically anywhere is an escape route, he used the reasoning that if a person is unconscious in any part of a building, the emergency services would have to get to that person and then out again, so risking entanglement basically anywhere.
     
    FatHands likes this.
  7. Lectrician

    Lectrician Screwfix Select

    The way the NIC discussed it on my assessment was that all rooms were escape routes, as you may have to escape from any of them. In a home, with all wiring in ceiling voids, lofts, in walls, then no additional support is required. If you added trunking and conduit after, thus would require consideration.

    I was told it was for all cables, so networking, phones, alarms.

    In commercial, the spacing of metal supports is determined from the height of the fixing from the ground. If the ceiling was 4m, you could put your metal fixings every 2m, leaving 2m clearance if a cable dangled. Infill with normal fixings. For example, with cable basket/tray, you could use a metal tie, then 10 PVC ones, then a metal tie.

    With plastic trunking, a couple of the metal supports or P clips in the trunking. With PVC conduit, a few galvanised saddles.

    The point was, you don't have to swap all your plastic supports for metal, just a few, based on ceiling or cable fixing height.
     
    FatHands likes this.
  8. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    They might well tell you that but it's always been the case that band I cabling has never been under the remit of bs7671 except for segregation, ergo this reg would not apply. I'm pretty sure this has not changed recently but always happy to learn.:)
     
  9. Risteard

    Risteard Screwfix Select

    Since when has Extra-Low Voltage wiring not come within the remit of BS 7671?

    Although I agree with you that plasterboard will satisfy fire resistance in a domestic property.
     
  10. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Having said that I've had a look at 110.1.2 "includes" requirements for telecoms cable so it's a bit ambiguous...
     
  11. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    sorry, Band 1, I acctually meant comms/telecoms, not selv etc.
     
  12. Without checking I don't see the windows as an escape route (only as a means for that room) - unless it is secondary means such as in a loft conversion.

    In any event, this only applies to surface mounted cabling/trunking - not to hidden services in a plasterboarded/ fireproof ceiling.
     
  13. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

  14. rd1

    rd1 Member

    Peter,
    Your comments are unclear as to who you mean, surely you are not suggesting that electricians will generally ignore this amendment?
    The problem with this falling wire (below ceilings) has been highlighted at several fires and notable inquests such as the Shirley Towers fire, the Harrow Court fire and the Warwickshire food warehouse fire, all resulted in firefighter deaths and it was the Coroners that required the amendment to be made due to firefighters becoming completely tangled in fallen cables and unable to escape.
    I know the HSE element has been discussed on this forum before regarding bathroom electrical death but I suspect that the cable fixing situation will be carefully looked at by the HSE at any future fatal fires whoever dies. Surely, all contractors will recognise the importance of the amendment but if not, then they face prosecution for gross negligence manslaughter as some people in other professions are already facing.
     
  15. seneca

    seneca Screwfix Select

    That type of situation is hardly likely to occur in a 3 bed semi though is it. I agree with Peter as far as domestic premises are concerned, admittedly different in commercial/industrial premises wit their different methods of construction, eg suspended ceilings etc.
     
  16. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Yea but if it was something the gov. had to implement costing $$$ then you can sure as hell bet it would soon be forgotten about. Look at my ATC example. That would save FAR MORE lives than some reg foisted on the trades.
     
  17. rd1

    rd1 Member

    Agreed Seneca, but I understood that it only applied to cables not behind fire resisting protection, whether it is domestic or commercial which makes the original comments regarding the 3 bed domestic and given to the OP even more bizarre. I have a feeling that this is another amendment that will require amendment to clarify exactly what is required. As an example I understand that even if metal buckle clips are used some research has indicated that the wall plugs are likely to soften and the weight of the cable will pull them out anyway.
     
  18. seneca

    seneca Screwfix Select

    I all gets a bit silly though doesn't it, for instance it was being said at one time that plastic rawlplugs shouldn't be used as they could melt, not the case apparently. Another one was AMD3 metal consumer units, people thinking that cable entries had to be "freproof", another load of old tosh!
     
  19. rd1

    rd1 Member

    Coloumb,
    You could get into quite a debate as to whether a lower speed limit would in fact save lives unless you mean specifically in town driving which I would not disagree with?

    I think vehicle technology is one of the main ways to reduce loss of life, just look at the stats for seat belt introduction, airbag use and crumple zones development and so on. The difficulty is that society expects a safe environment and once something like falling cables is identified as the reason for loss of life it quite rightly has to be dealt with.

    What I think is wrong if the trades are expected to pick it up without an increase in cost but when other things have been introduced such as enhanced electrical testing regimes the job cost reflects the extra time. Personally i expect to pay for the higher standard particularly if it is explained when I ask for the quote.
     
  20. multiprong

    multiprong New Member

    The bottom line on the original question is: even if the reg does apply in any way, you are probably talking about a small amount of fixings and a small amount of extra time. Certainly that one regulation should not add hundreds of pounds to a quote on a 3 bed semi. Testing etc. has been a vital part of any electrical job for many years, and any tradesman worth his salt would have this cost factored in. The average domestic customer is just looking for the best price, not to pick holes in an estimate to squeeze profit out of a job. This sounds like the reg is being bandied about as a tool to inflate the rewire cost rather than merely about installation standards.
     

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