At wits' end - lead paint everywhere

Discussion in 'Painters' Talk' started by sdjamie, Jul 3, 2008.

  1. sdjamie

    sdjamie New Member

    Hi folks,
    As the subject line notes, having a bit of a crisis. My wife and I have stripped wallpaper from our home and we've discovered there's lead-based paint (or distemper?) in the layers underneath.

    Further, in preparation for fitting a new bathroom we've popped off some tiles (and some plaster in the process as it's blown) and underneath it's the same story. We'd arranged for a plasterer to come to make good the walls but it looks like removing tiles and plaster will be pretty hazardous.

    I've scoured the web and found advice from Defra, British Coatings Federation and so on which suggests that the situation should be treated pretty seriously.

    Haven't a clue how to proceed. I may be overreacting but does anyone know of specialist outfits that can advise/deal with this sort of stuff (I'm in NE England)?
     
  2. sdjamie

    sdjamie New Member

    Putting issues with my bathroom aside, the general advice on the web seems to be to repaper and paint. If I do this myself then I'd be concerned about how to prepare the walls safely. Would sugar soap be okay? My impression is that some mixtures contain abrasives, which I'm not sure would be welcome in this case.

    I'm also anxious to get the walls covered up as soon as possible but it will take a while to get papering done. Would anyone recommend some sort of sealant or primer that would bind the surface but allow papering later?

    Thanks in advance for any help.
     
  3. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    Hi sdjamie.

    I take it you have actually tested the paint for lead, and it's come out +ve? If not, do so - you might be worrying unnecessarily.

    Apparently some distemper-type paints did contain lead, tho' usually it's the 'glossing' - ie: the paint on woodwork, etc. - that's the culprit.

    It's only a problem if you breath or eat it... I take it there's little chance of the latter.

    As for breathing it, this can usually only occur if you sand it (producing dust) or burn it (causing fumes). Washing it down shouldn't be a problem - just make sure you wash it down well, and pour the dirty water away.

    If you clean down the walls with a sugar-soap solution, this, as you say, will remove a layer of the surface. Not a problem if you wipe it off and rinse out your cloths regularly. I can only see it being a 'problem' if you clean the walls, and then let it dry without washing it down - in which case the stuff you've removed from the wall will dry on it as a powder...

    Just be sensible - no sanding, no hot paint gunning.


    Once it's covered over with fresh paint - eg emulsion - then problem over as far as you are concerned. What I don't know is whether 'distemper' requires special treatment before being painted with modern paints.

    Have you posted this on the Painters' forum?
     
  4. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    Do'h - this is the Painters' forum... :(
     
  5. sdjamie

    sdjamie New Member

    Thanks for the advice. I did a number of tests with Nitromors kits that B&Q sells and they came up positive in a number of places, hence my alarm. It does appear to be a case of just being very careful.

    I see a number of suppliers offer a non-abrasive sugar soap. Perhaps this is the best choice for cleaning.
     
  6. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    I'm surprised no-one has come on yet to say how to prepare distemper before painting with modern emulsion - perhaps it's worth a new post with just that heading?

    I think it comes down to just how 'powdery' the surface is. It might need a primer, or it might be ok just painting over - I just don't know.


    ANYONE?!
     
  7. Astramax

    Astramax Super Member

    When I've encountered distemper I have removed it successful by washing it off with warm soapy water and if need be, when wet a 4" scraping blade.

    If it's not to bad you can seal it with an oil based Primer Sealer that will hold it back by sealing the surface and then decorate as normal.
     
  8. sdjamie

    sdjamie New Member

    Well hopefully we've done the right thing. We washed down the walls with an abrasive free sugar soap followed by plain water. Where the original distemper showed through it did indeed wash off.

    When the walls were dry we painted over with PVA diluted 1 part to 3 of water - as recommended on the back of the can. Perhaps should have gone 1:1 but it seems to have bonded (Astramax, didn't see your email about using an oil based primer sealer 'till too late unfortunately). We'll be putting up lining paper and painting over.

    So now it's time to ponder how to remove ceramic tiles in the bathroom safely.
     
  9. sdjamie

    sdjamie New Member

    Okay, in advance of any flames, it appears from a search on the web that PVA was a bad idea and an oil based primer should have been used instead. I've had advice from a couple of sources that Zinsser Bullseye 123 over the PVA would be sensible way of remedying the problem. Any opinions?
     
  10. Astramax

    Astramax Super Member

    Bulls eye is expensive on large area's, check out zinnser shieldz.

    If your papering over the PVA walls, carry on they will be fine but size first. As a sealer I would have used the primer/sealer for 1st choice, 2nd choice on very bad plaster would have been 5:1 PVA.

    Prior to sizing and paper hanging you will have to lightly sand the walls to remove the pinheads. They are the dusty bits you feel when you run the palm of your hand over the wall.
     
  11. Burlington Bertie

    Burlington Bertie New Member

    sdjamie

    With the greatest respect, it seems to me that you and your wife are getting a bit paranoid about lead in paint. You seem to be under the impression that you are surrounded by some sort of deadly problem in your house.

    Many older houses and some not that old (50+ years) were painted with paint containing lead. I can remember in my youth using lead paints. You appear to think that some old emulsion paints used lead, but I do not recall any emulsion paints that contained lead and logic says why would they use lead in emulsion paint. I may be wrong on this but I do not think so, so therefore it's only paint on woodwork (and metalwork) that is a (small) hazard.

    I seem to recall that the main reason lead paints were discontinued was because babies and toddlers could bite on lead painted surfaces when they were teething and this was deemed to be a dangerous problem. Providing you take reasonable precautions as recommended by the major paint manufacturers and use a suitable mask you should not have a problem. After all, up to a few years ago we were all breathing the fumes from leaded petrol which were probably far more damaging than the very small risk from lead paint and nobody gave a monkeys

    So relax, the problem is not that bad. How many people do you know who have died from lead poisoning? (Apart from the gunslingers in the Wild West - most of whom died from infection from gunshot wounds, not the lead in the bullets)
     
  12. Burlington Bertie

    Burlington Bertie New Member

    PS I don't recall any lead being used in distemper. To the best of my knowledge, distemper was basically powder (cement or other type) mixed with water. This nearly always dried to leave a surface that was powdery. After several layers, it tended to flake off, particularly when it was wet or damp.

    It need to be removed (which can be a hit or miss job and very messy) or (easier) sealed before applying anything on top of it. For exterior surfaces use Stabiliser, for interiors (walls) use a primer sealer. Many manufacturers make suitable sealers, including excellent ones from Zinsser, although Zinsser they can be a bit pricey for wall sealing
     
  13. sdjamie

    sdjamie New Member

    Thanks for the feedback. Glad to hear I can just carry on with the papering. A decorator at work here was kind enough to give me a half-finished tub of Bulls eye. I'll put it to one side. There's bound to be something cropping up that I can use it for.

    I have to say, the house contains very bad plaster. It's very dry and crumbly and ought to be stripped off. Also, last year we had to have the ground floor replaced because of rotting joists. The interior stair wall is built off the floor and it didn't really appreciate being jacked up.
     
  14. sdjamie

    sdjamie New Member

    Burlington Bertie, thanks for the reality check. I have been getting a bit anxious. Searching around the web for information on the matter can do that. The Defra and British Coatings Federation guidelines are quite stringent in themselves but beyond that, in the US the matter appears to be treated with as much caution as Asbestos.

    Its perhaps worth noting regards the wall paints that Defra and BCF both observe there's a possibility.

    * Defra: "distempers (an early form of whitewash, sometimes coloured) occasionally contained lead."

    * BCF: "some red, yellow, orange or green lead-based pigments (lead chromates) found limited uses in certain coloured gloss paints and wall paints."

    I did also use Nitromors test kits on the walls and they were positive.

    Hopefully some of my paranoia can be excused.
     
  15. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    Hi sdjamie.

    You did mention that you'd checked the distemper for lead content, and it came up +ve, so your 'paranoia' was justified.

    However, as BB, says, the risk is infinitesimal (yep, I had to confirm the spelling of that one...).

    IF you were to sand down the distempered walls, and IF you were to breath heavily through the job, then I doubt even then there'd be a health problem (at least not from the lead content...)! IF, however, you were to sweep up all the dust and bake a cake using it as the 'mix, then possibly...

    You've sorted the walls by sealing them.

    As for the tiles, really, really, there isn't a risk. By all means - to be absolutely, absolutely certain - wear a dust mask whilst you rip them off, and then sweep up the debris and vacuum the floor before removing it. The dust produced (plaster, tile adhesive, etc) by this type of job isn't pleasant, so you SHOULD wear a mask in any case.

    As for your crumbling plaster - there's no cure; it needs to come off and be re-done, I'm afraid. Again, tackle one room at a time. Keep the doors of that room closed, open the window if you wish. Wear a dust mask and goggles, and go for it. A hellish messy job, but no easy way out. Again, sweep up and vacuum before opening the door to the rest of the house.

    Actual lead risk - insignificant.
     
  16. Captain Leaky

    Captain Leaky New Member

    Are you dead yet? :^O
     
  17. sdjamie

    sdjamie New Member

    I'm more bothered about the going nuts aspect. Oh hang on...
    ;)
     
  18. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    Don't wanna put a damper on things, but I don't think PVA is a good sealer for whitewash or distemper. Reckon you could peel it off in sheets. :(



    Mr. Handyandy - really
     
  19. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    Yeah, I think he's realised that now :(

    It will hopefully be ok, tho', since he washed the walls down first.

    And, fortunately, he is planning to line the walls instead of painting on direct.

    (I learned the hard way with that one - ever tried painting emulsion onto a PVA'd wall? Interesting texture when the surface of the PVA re-activates... :()
     
  20. diyhopeful

    diyhopeful Active Member

    Think I'd like to add my 2 penneth worth.

    The old Victorian house I did up was full of lead paint in the vast majority of the gloss work. And many of the rooms were very crumbly plaster.

    Stripped damaged paintwork back using Nitromors and replastered were neccessary. Job done, no worries.

    Maybe the kits are too sensitive ? and web sites are notorious for being doom mongers.

    If you live by the North Circular you'd get a positive lead result in the soil....

    There is one more thing. Lead in gloss paint nearly blinded me. My wife was using a heat gun and a burning piece of paint landed on my face when I looked up to see what she was doing. :(
     

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