Bathroom nightmare

Hi Fatty.

(C'mon - you said it...)

They are liable - 100%.

The only exception to this is if they recommended a moulded shower tray and you insisted on a tiled type.

I have to say, any shower base that relies only on its grouting for being waterproof is not something I would personally entertain ever. At the very least the area under it should have been fully 'tanked' and made 100% watertight first. Then fix yer tiles if that's what you really want.

As you say, you paid for a job that should be 'fit for purpose', and you weren't given this. The builder knew how, er, big you were beforehand.

I am as certain as a certain thing that you are almost certainly completey covered legally - but CAB should be a port of call first.

It's tough on the builder - perhaps your house does have a bit more movement in it that yer average one - but that's why you employ a qualified builder at fair expense, and didn't DIY it.

 

Temporary bodge!

 

As CGN says - that's a cop-out. An amateurish 'fix'.

It will certainly be flexible, so should last perhaps a few months, possibly a year or more. At which point any claim you have over them has gone. Especially as you will have accepted their 'fix'.

Can you tell us the discussions you had prior to the job? Why was a tiled 'tray' preferred by you? Did they give any warnings about this?

It is perfectly possible to waterproof a room to make it a 'wet' type - there are membranes, slurries, fibreglassing, all sorts of ways this can be done so that the tiled floor isn't doing all the work.

Laying a bed of tiles and crossing fingers that it'll work is not one.

I sympathise with them - as I'm sure you do. It's an unpleasant situation and will mean a lot more work for them, possibly up to the point where they end up making little on the job. But, that's tough. I mean, why should you have to compromise due to their - their - error?

I don't know how much the floor tiles cost - it would be fair to offer to pay whatever extra the tray costs over this. But - sorry - it's their error, not yours.

You are a layman - you don't need to understand what's going on other than to know when it's done properly and it works. And that is what you pay them for.

The more they try and get out of this the less sympathy I have for them - they are not being very professional.

I repeat - as far as I understand, the waterproofing of this floor should not just be down to the tiles and grout! It should have been waterproofed first, and then tiled.

Just keep asking yourself - what went wrong, and who is responsible? Was it anything you did? No, of course not. It was all down to the pros you employed - and they need to start acting like pros and sort this properly with good grace. They will ultimately feel better about this too.

 

Out of interest was it a upstairs bathroom or downstairs? Was the floor concrete or wood that they tiles on. If wood did they over board with ply board regards david

 

Where is the grout cracking.
Is it in the corners or the bed of the tray?
Could you possibly post a few pics of the damage?

 

It should have been tanked prior to tiling.

They've f*@ked up. And if they are experts they should have considered everything and priced accordingly.

What did you get for 6.6k?its a lot of money for a bathroom refurbishment.

Do not accept silicone.

Tell them they need to take out the tiles and tank the area tank the area and assess and tighten up floor etc. The floor to the shower Base area should have been properly fixed prior to works. The tanking system should have flexible reinforcement at junctions to allow for movement.

You paid dearly and now it hasn't worked they want to fob you off with a cheap "repair". Stick to your guns on this one.

 

Six-Something grand is a lot of money for a bathroom refurbishment, it isn't however what you could call unusual.
I've done bathrooms for half that amount and bathrooms for five times that amount.
A quality job should be expected regardless.
The shower area may well have been tanked as is normal practice, but as of yet, we don't know if it has been, or not.

Any genuine settlement or subsidence issues with the property are highly unlikely to be picked up by a person fitting a bathroom.

It's a difficult one to judge as the entire picture is unclear
If it's a simple case of cracked grout in the corners, that normal, and precisely why silicone should be used instead of grout.

 

But if the grout failed (so soon), got replaced and it's still leaking the tanking system (if there) should have caught the water and hasn't.

Accepting silicone now would be crazy.

 

Tbf, the fit and finish of the overall bathroom looks to be of a good standard. Some won't like the push fit elbows used in the rerouted pipe work, but that's not the issue at present.

From looking at the photos, the joist strength has been compromised by the original pipe installation which may or may not have been rectified when installing the shower tray former, causing it to flex. There are different types of former designed to cope with different loads etc, but regardless, if the joists are flexing, this will cause the tray to flex somewhat and of course break down the bond between the tiles and the former. We pretty much know that anyway.
It can only be rectified by taking the floor up unfortunately.
What would be interesting is whether the existing floor has been upgraded... It should have been, and if there is any form of tanking...doubtful. So regardless of the joists flexing, the rest of it has probably not been done to the correct standard which gives you greater leverage in getting it sorted.

I'd be asking if the original flooring (looks like caber) was upgraded to either the correct thickness and grade of either ply, or a modern alternative such as Hardie floor?

Was a tanking system used?

They have to answer honestly as in the long run, the floor has to come up to rectify the problem and the evidence will present itself.

This is your lever to get it sorted.

 

Only diy but a few comments from those pics;

Firstly, looks like a great job overall, nice fittings and attention to detail but uv got problems

I know where a lot of that 6k + budget went on ........ 'push fit connections'. Strange for a 'plumber' to use purely speed fit in that quantity. Access to soldering looks fine, end feed fittings cost pennies and are considered superior by many, especially when used in an in inaccessible position

Massive notching of joists, no additional support, could weaken and lead to flexing of floor

What prep was done to floor before tiling onto ? Can see usual construction of joists and chipboard sheet but, what, if anything went over the chipboard. 18mm ply, cement tile board, other ?

Sounds like a pre formed tray was used under the shower area to tile onto and get the fall but any flex in the floor will result in cracks to grout and possibly tiles. Doesn't matter if the tile adhesive and grout says it's flexible, there's only so much it will take (and that's not much flexing)

Shouldn't the junction between wall and floor be siliconed, and also internal corners ? These areas often show hairline cracks if just finished with grout

Anyway, I'm just diy, see what others say and hope you get this sorted as what a shame

 

If it is a wet room, then yes TANKED.

I did my own, used 22mm Hardie Floor - way superior to any ply flooring. The shower area is a 900x900 Impey tray/former and the edges sit flush with the floor. The whole room was then tanked to 100mm up the walls - teh Impeyt tray could be specified with enough membrane for the whole room. Then, the floor tiled over completely, with a slope into the main shower area.

Look at Impey and their Aqua-Dec Linear 2, 3 or 4 formers https://www.impeyshowers.com/luxury-wetrooms/wetroom-floor-formers.aspx They offer you a potential solution that means no tray standing off the floor.



I believe that Impey claim their formers can withstand some VERY heavy loads - the EasyFit rated at 47 stone ... and you are probably well less than that.

 

How about strengthening joists by taking section of ceiling down beneath the shower (if possible)?

 

A wet room works on the same principle of a swimming pool. The whole are are should be lined in moisture proof board and then tanked, tiles and grout are never 100% water proof just the same as concrete isn't 100% water proof. Water is sucked in by osmosis and if its not tanked then you'll end up with fungus attacking the structural timbers.

I would never attempt one and would advise against one if it rests on timber floors, I've been to too many leaks coming from wet rooms and I nearly always end up having to chop a whole in someones ceiling to find the leak.

It's hard to say whether its been done properly but if there is movement on the floor joists then this will almost certainly cause breaks in grout. they normally line the floors with marine ply and then cement board followed by a tanking solution. Which is why plumbers stay clear from this type of building work, we do plumbing....first fix second fix etc...everything else is up to joiners, builders, and tilers.

 

Yes the joists should have been strengthened by sistering up with another alongside and extra noggins fitted if there was any doubt. You can tile over caber flooring (tongue and groove chipboard) if you fit tile backer board but I would not entertain that in a wetroom...especially on a first floor.
You have to build in structural longevity, so I would take up the caber flooring, fit either ply or Hardie flooring after sorting the joist issue. Tbf, in your instance, the company wouldn't know about the joist issue until the job was underway. I try to be as honourable as possible with quotes as it is my job to foresee potential issues based upon my experience, however, there are times when you just have to say that there is a problem and in order to not compromise the quality of the job, it is going to cost you a bit more. On large jobs, you can sometimes swallow the cost and just get on with it, smaller jobs generally have little headroom.
Tanking is there as a last defence really, just in case the first line of defence breaks down, but needs to be there. This is not a tiled floor in a standard bathroom. It is a wetroom...the floor needs tanking, end of. You need to ask the questions mentioned in my previous posts, because if they haven't done the job properly (regardless of your weight... Sorry) then you have a very strong case for getting them to rectify the work in the correct manner whether the joists are the problem or not.

 

Good luck, CTD, and keep us posted.

Remember you are a 'layman' here - although now a better informed one. But it isn't for you to have to 'argue' this situation (tho' you can if you want...) but for them to explain why it failed, accept full responsibility and then put it right - at no extra cost to you.

You paid decent money for a job (I agree with above - it looks good and is well finished) and the finished item has failed and is unusable. It really is as simple as that.

Your size (and thanks for taking my joshing in good spirit ) is irrelevant; how many showers or baths have a 'one person' limit, for example? Ie - what is to prevent 2 people using your shower, as I'm sure many would want to?

If you are truly so 'big' that this could have been an issue, then - as pros - they should have taken that in to account from the off and talked the options over with you. They didn't - they took on the job.

Do you remember the build process? Do you recall what they put on the floor and walls? Do you remember a tanking product - either a membrane or an applied product?

Anyhoo, that is irrelevant - this comes down to you having paid pros a sizeable amount (that would suggest you did not look for a 'cheap' job) for a fully-finished wetroom. Which has failed. And needs sorting.

End of.

I cannot see any way they are not liable for this, 100%.