Becoming a carpenter/joiner.

Discussion in 'Carpenters' Talk' started by tomba26, Nov 1, 2006.

  1. tomba26

    tomba26 New Member

    Hi all, my first post and looking for a little advice.
    Basically I would love to re-train and become a qualified joiner but I am now aged 31. I was a dairy farmer up until a few years ago and got out as the industry was going downhill. Over the last 4 or 5 years I have bought a few small houses and renovated them and then generally leased to tenants. I have found that I have thoroughly enjoyed the joinery side of things although my knowledge is somewhat limited although I am proficient with tools and come from a hands on background.
    Can anybody advice me to the possibilities?
    I know that I would be looking at a 3 year NVQ qualification in joinery but it seems they all require work placements, which I would love to have. Would joiners/carpenters in the trade be likely to look at a keen 31 year old?
    If it makes any difference I live in the North West/Lancashire area.
    Thanks.
     
  2. ShabbaPlanks

    ShabbaPlanks Member

    Most colleges run an equivilent to the NVQ. At the moment it is called the Foundation construction award Carpenty. This course mirrors the NVQ with site work being simulated in the workshop on rigs and such. You can, should you find an employer then transfer all your work to date too an NVQ.
    Most full time college courses only come to 16hrs a week, this would leave you time to earn and find an employer placemant. Or choose your carear path with a little more knowledge.
    The foundation course is followed by an intermediate course equivilent to an NVQ II. Most courses have a bias towards site work. Specific joinery courses are harder to find.
    Chances of finding a placement are small. There is very little incentive for employers to take you on as oppossed to a teenager. In your first year you will learn much that will enable you to confidently take on your own jobs.
    Myself I am in my second year. I work two days as a cleaner. That leaves me two full days to take on small domestic jobs for friends and family. If you work efficiently and to a high standard and are reliable/ well presented the work will come in. When I finish my course I will have invested in enough tools to start on my own full time, though my hope is to gain experience working with others first.
    Be prepared to invest heavily in tools to the point you are allways broke. You will break even eventualy, that is my hope.
    Otherwise train as a bricky or plasterer. Those are the other two widely availible coureses that colleges are offering.
    Good luck
     
  3. dunc

    dunc New Member

    I'm a self taught general carpenter. Most of my skills were learned by home improvements. I worked for agencies, which a lot of people scoff at, but there were just as many 'qualified' chippies either doing the work or managing the agency staff in a dodgy operation.

    I built up a collection of tools which I find I can work with. So I look after them. They also determine the kind of items I can produce.

    I have a web site and advertise in specific journals to attract clients. Generally I fix up their homes and create the kind of things they can't buy. It won't make me a fortune but it provides a living.

    Lifelong chippies have a lot more confidence and can command decent fees for their work, but they are also very good, due to their experience. But they also have an extended network and first choice at the big spending customers. But this costs in terms of lifelong commitments and hefty pub attendances.

    So from my experience a lot depends on the people you work with and if they like you and are willing to give you the opportunity to develop. And your tool kit. If you have the tools you can do the job.

    So you may want to consider how much time you want to spend in studying. It can take 3-4 years before building up your own business. Add this to the study period, it could be 10 years before you are earning sufficiently. Customers either forget or blow you out if you are not available when they want you.

    I enjoy what I do, because it makes my customers happy and I can make a living.
     
  4. tomba26

    tomba26 New Member

    Thanks for the replies lads.
    From what I have found out it seems that all college courses related to joinery (NVQ, foundation courses, etc) all seem to start in September, is this strictly the case? It certainly seems to be.
    If that is the case then I think my best option is to try and somehow find a placement with a firm as a trainee joiner between now and say next May/June and go the NVQ route if I get taken on. If that fails I will en-role on the foundation type course you suggested at college (which I think will be May/June) and go that route.

    Anyone know any different with regards all the courses starting in Sept as they seem to in my area (N/West, Lancs)?
    Cheers.
     
  5. ShabbaPlanks

    ShabbaPlanks Member

    The college I attend has an intake in January. This is an exception to the rule as it is a new purpose built centre for construction trades. Sept is not that far away, you will be lucky to find a placemant before then as the odds are stacked against you.
    Do not go the "self taught" route as you will never reach your full potential.
     
  6. boschman

    boschman New Member

    Try ringing around the collages, such as tameside collage (Ashton under lyne), or mancat (openshaw) as they may take you on due to people droping out, course not full ect......the 1st year is simple, so anythin you have missed up to now wont be rocket science. u'll proberbly find that not many firms, if any, will want to take you on as a chippy if your not learning in conjuction with an ACA and NQV.

    an alternitive route would be to ring Skill Solutions, who are a training provider, and will help find you a work placement. Im not sure what the situation will be thou with you being out of the 16-24 age brcket, but its worth a phonecall.

    hope you get somethin pal.
     
  7. tomba26

    tomba26 New Member

    Thanks for the advice boschman.
    I rung Tameside and spoke to one of the construction staff about courses and he said that NVQ was out of the question unless I was employed but 'Carpentry & Joinery Level 1' would have been ideal but they are full. They may run the course again in January so I have to ring back. I think is course must be the first rung on the ACA ladder as it states that progression on completion would allow you onto the Intermediate Construction Award Course (ICA) and presumably the ACA in the 3rd year. This looks like the only route if you are not employed already in the industry. These courses also allow you to convert straight to NVQ if you find employment.

    Mancat I need to ring back tomorrow but they offer an FCA foundation course and a 'Carpentry and Joinery NCFE.

    Presuming I don't manage to get taken on with someone until I am doing a course, do you know which of the above courses would offer the best chance of gaining employment?
    Many thanks for all your help.
     
  8. tomba26

    tomba26 New Member

    Thanks for the advice boschman.
    I rung Tameside and spoke to one of the construction staff about courses and he said that NVQ was out of the question unless I was employed but 'Carpentry & Joinery Level 1' would have been ideal but they are full. They may run the course again in January so I have to ring back. I think is course must be the first rung on the ACA ladder as it states that progression on completion would allow you onto the Intermediate Construction Award Course (ICA) and presumably the ACA in the 3rd year. This looks like the only route if you are not employed already in the industry. These courses also allow you to convert straight to NVQ if you find employment.

    Mancat I need to ring back tomorrow but they offer an FCA foundation course and a 'Carpentry and Joinery NCFE.

    Presuming I don't manage to get taken on with someone until I am doing a course, do you know which of the above courses would offer the best chance of gaining employment?
    Many thanks for all your help.
     
  9. boschman

    boschman New Member

    Going back 5 years ago, when i started my nvq level 1....there was only 6 of us in the group......and after 6 months there was 25 of us....due to all the lads from the full time course havin found work placements thorugh the collage.

    I went to tameside and did my NVQ through to level 3, id say you carnt really go wrong there.
     
  10. ShabbaPlanks

    ShabbaPlanks Member

    It is most likely that the colege will only allow you to enter on an FCA. ACA is for carpenters wishing to progress into managment level and has little to do with wood working skills and methods.
    Though you may have much associated experience I would suggest the FCA will give you the opportunity to learn much. Course content varys from area to area, though in general you will cover joints and fixing methods. Use of hand tools and power tools also underpinning knowledge that will help your second year flow (ICA). Without the FCA your ICA will be hard work. A large proportion of learning is expected to take place in your own time and can then be affirmed with a mixture of practical and theory work in the college.
    Remember that whilst doing an FCA/ICA should you find employment you will be able to transfer your work to date with no hassle.
    With regards finding an employer it is not that simple. You need an employer who does everything that is covered on the curriculum. Roofing, 1st and 2nd fix. Some basic joinery is also mixed in with the first year. If you cant do any of these tasks in the workplace you will not finish your qualification. Where as with the FCA this is not a problem as all tasks are simulated in the classroom.
    Now where I am coming from is the position that an NVQ is better recognised. I hope to find a position right at the end of my course. Transfer to an NVQ with only a few tasks left to complete. One month on site should see me leave with an NVQ less one and a half years of hassle with employers who are only after cheap labour.
    There are companys who invest in the future by investing in their employees, but they are few and far between. You need a national construction company with a scheme in place to make use of your time on site.
    Ask the college for a list of suggested reading, this will give you a head start.
     
  11. big all

    big all Screwfix Select

    heeellloo tobas :D:D:D:D

    you ask the question about other start dates appart from september

    the origional idea of nvq [dont know what its like now] was on going come in when you like do your year ish and leave
    pay your fees for a year and re register and carry on where you left off

    now that ok if you have a reasonable teacher to pupil ratio
    but if you have say 1 tutor and 8 pupils all at different stages it can be tediously slow

    also as a mature student with more life experience [and common sense ;)]you will end up as unofical "helper" by the lads craving attention with there problem no big deal in its self but it can break your train off thought several times a day

    so look for a course thats got good ratios

    big all
     
  12. Jonny Round Boy

    Jonny Round Boy New Member

    Tomba, where abouts in NW/Lancs area are you? If you're close, you should try Burnley College. I went there a few years back, and the staff there are top notch (I did the furniture design & making course, but they do all the joinery courses). I went there as a mature student - they seem to take on a much higher percentage of mature students than most places, and they're very helpful. They've recently built a new construction skills centre off the main site too. http://www.burnley.ac.uk
     
  13. tomba26

    tomba26 New Member

    OK first of all thanks everyone for taking the time to give me some advice!
    It would appear that every college I have looked at only starts courses (especially FCA/ICA) in September. From what Shabba says this route could almost be an advantage unless I find a decent national construction company with a some guidelines in place.
    Ideally I would love to find employment with a company like this and if not go the FCA route. As I have time on my side (Next September course start), I will first of all try to find a placement so can anyone suggest some firms in Lancs/North west that offer the advantages that ShabbaPlanks has suggested?
    Many, many thanks folks.
     
  14. tomba26

    tomba26 New Member

    I just wanted to update this post and let those who gave me advice know what was going on.
    I have asked fairly extensively locally and all firms seem to want some prior skills at the age of 31. I also rung all the colleges within travelling distance and none have any places left on this years intake.
    However I have been advised to go along to an open evening at Blackpool College at the end of this month to meet the tutors, see the workshops and so on. There is a general home carpentry course starting in January which lasts 10 weeks I am going to enrol on. There is no qualification at the end of it but it will hopefully improve my knowledge.
    My intention then would be to enrol on the full-time (it's actually only 2 days per week) FCA in Sept 07 and work towards gaining employment with a little more knowledge/skills and ultimately convert to NVQ.
    Thanks for all your help and I will keep you informed.
     
  15. coops73

    coops73 New Member

    hello tomba
    your situation is almost identical to mine. I also left my previous career and took on a few houses approx 6 years ago. Realised that I was very competent at joinery and thoroughly enjoyed it. My developments helped me aquire a large array of tools but living in lancs myself I am sure your aware that the BIG developers were outbuying us little fish so the developement game kind of dried up 2 years ago.
    This year I decided to take the leap and enroll on a college course, now this is the interesting bit..... if you are reasonbly skilled and can assure your course tutor that you could handle the course content. They do,if you push them,let you skip the FCA year and go straight onto the ICA. This saving you a lot of time.
    I have so far found even this course very basic, but very enjoyable.
    If you would like to know a little more about the course email me on emmadave31@aol . com
    I'd be pleased to chat to you about it
     
  16. tomba26

    tomba26 New Member

    Hi coops, thanks for your reply.
    I have sent you an email so just re-post here and let me know if you don't get it.
    Cheers mate.
     
  17. holtya1

    holtya1 New Member

    just get a job most joiners on site ive come across arent up to much and traditional roofing is no longer on the ciriculom you might need a cscs card which you can probably get on ebay
     
  18. holtya1

    holtya1 New Member

    just get a job most joiners on site ive come across arent up to much and traditional roofing is no longer on the ciriculom you might need a cscs card which you can probably get on ebay
     
  19. prince

    prince New Member

    Are there still 'proper' Joiners about. I havent seen any evidence lately. I spent 3 years at college on block release, and to be honest everything they told me, my then boss laughed about. I learnt more out of college than in.
    I reckon it takes a good 5-6 years to become good enough to tackle most things, and then you learn on a daily basis. Ive been in the trade since leaving school at 16, and after 20 years im still learning new things.

    Ive seen plenty of people classing themselves as joiners, and they couldnt join jack ****.. The best one lately is the guy who hung 7 new doors for a customer, and all 7 were upside down...Charged her £45 a door!! Enough said.
     
  20. joiner_sim

    joiner_sim New Member

    Hey,
    I just thought I'd add some input to this as i'm a successfull apprentice who's know in the trade qualified and working with an FCA, ICA, Key Skills & NVQ Level 2 qualifications! I trained with Carllion Construction, who run colleges across the country, but they rarely take on anyone above 19 years old. They find your work placements, and while your out of work, you are still earning as that is what they contracted with you to do, so you will always have a weekly pay, wether in college on work placement or out of a job!

    Anyways, i got called into college every few months to do the paperwork side of things and I spent a hell of a lotta time on work placement at a joinery workshop, where after i achieved my qualifications, they full time employed me. I still work with them now and have achieved a high status in the small workshop. We still use carillion trainees, and in your case (who i'm replying to) our sorta companmy just cudent afford to employ an older person who needed training up first. Even on minimum wage, you would need to be fully competant. The younger ones, we are allowed by the governments apprentice minimum wage to pay alot less and this allows people like myself to come thru the ranks.

    Good luck in your training anyways and I wish you the best in getting on in life, just as I have at only 19, I now have nearly 3 n a half years experience in the wood work industry!
     

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