Boiler Replacement Advice

Discussion in 'Plumbers' Talk' started by Robert_1985, Apr 5, 2014.

  1. Robert_1985

    Robert_1985 New Member

    Hello,

    I inherited the family home last year and having moved in there are a list of updates I would like to do come warmer weather; one being the boiler.

    The facts:
    - 3 bedroom semi-detached - built '69.
    - Potterton Kingfisher II boiler (at least as old as I am (28)) - not entirely sure of its output.
    - Piping at the boiler is gas in, heating flow and return, hot water flow and return...presumably...5 pipes.
    - The heating and water piping leaving the boiler is 1" (diameter), and 0.5" coming up at the radiators.
    - There are currently 6 radiators (1x cast iron in hall collocated with boiler thermostat), bathroom rail (looks like steel), 2x double panel older style finned and 2x double panel no fins)
    - There are no thermostatic valves on any of the radiators; these will be added with the exception of the hall radiator.
    - Hot water cylinder and feeder tank currently taking up space.
    - The shower is fed from the hot water tank; I do not wish to the change the shower.
    - The flow rate of my mains water...I don't know. Something to find out.
    - To my knowledge the system has never been flushed. Boiler has been serviced every year.

    My gas bill (Scottish Gas - Standard - Quarterly DD) for the last year totaled £702.06 (or £58.50/mo) for 13886.39kWh used. The current quarter is likely to be lower as my mother was still in the house this time last year; since I have been in my usage has been significantly lower than hers. I would estimate perhaps £45-50 a month average over the year long period by the end of this quarter (June).I admit, this seems pretty low - in part due to the 'mild', wet winter; only 2 days of frost here as I remember. The central heating has been on 100% of the time, controlled by the thermostat, set at 17C (thermostat accuracy is suspect, so reckon that is more like 15C). The hot water is on once a day for 30minutes to heat the contents of the cylinder; enough to give me a shower and wash some dishes.

    The boiler I am 'eyeing up' is a Worcester-Bosch Greenstar 32CDi Compact.I wish to keep the existing position of the boiler, which is in the kitchen, on the supporting wall in some 'special' little alcove that backs onto the chimney stack which is used by the vertical flue. Given it is floor standing at the moment and the aforementioned boiler is physically a lot smaller it would fit easily in the upper portion of said alcove and a door can be fitted in front of it level with the wall with space left over below for...shoes for whatever. Total length of the flue would be ~12meters I reckon. Current flue diameter is 4" where it leaves the boiler and disappears from view.

    There is some vibration in the heating pipes upstairs. Seems to be the ones leading to the radiator in my bedroom. If I stand on certain floorboards or lean against that radiator it stops. It has done this for (many) years now if I remember correctly. I only ever seem to notice it at night.

    For the radiators, I would like to keep the cast iron one in the hall (collocated with the boiler thermostat). I would like to add a radiator to the spare bedroom - currently no radiator - and a small one in the upstairs hall; bringing total to 8.I would also like to replace the radiator in my bedroom (one of the 2 panel no fin ones) as it doesn't get hot in the time before the thermostat puts the boiler back to standby.

    I would like your collective inputs on the above and any questions etc I should be asking of the fitters I get in to quote.
    What sort of price should I be expecting for labour given the boiler is about £1000? I don't intend to ask any of the gas companies.

    I have a concern that I could go to all the expense of changing it only to find my gas bill doesn't change...or goes up; given my usage seems to be pretty low. That said, it is an old boiler, but its also not caused any problems (ever) and has been serviced every year.


    Thanks,
    -Robert
     
  2. tom.plum

    tom.plum Screwfix Select

    yes you will save money on gas whatever the boiler you choose, you will save even more money on gas if you go for a combi system, because a combi only heats the water you use, it does't store hot water, you will get much more powerfull shower and your rads will get hotter faster, but they may need flushing out first,
     
  3. meady

    meady Member

    If you want your new flue to run up the chimney then you will need access panels at every flue joint to meet regs. What's your location as that can have an affect on the price of labour
     
  4. Robert_1985

    Robert_1985 New Member

    Eugh, access panels to the chimney stack will cause one hell of a mess.
    I live in west central Scotland.
     
  5. Oooh - particularly messy in that part of the world.

    Is there an external wall near the location of that alcove? If so, that would be the best way to take the new flue out.

    And, as you say, you'll need to measure your cold mains water flow to see if a combi is a goer in any case. Stick a bucket under your kitchen cold tap and turn it on full for, say, 10 seconds. Measure how many litres you have and times it by 6 to get litres-per-minute. You want at least mid-teens and preferably high.
     
  6. Robert_1985

    Robert_1985 New Member

    Flow rate works out about ~15.7l/min.
    The gable end is a couple of meters to the left. Not a great deal of space there but it's something I may have to consider. Better that than the loft...want it somewhere I can see it.
     
  7. plumberboy

    plumberboy Well-Known Member

    Hi Robert,your best bet is to get a few local installers out listen to their advice,compare their estimates and advice ,you will get a feel for what advice and installer suits you.
     
  8. Robert_1985

    Robert_1985 New Member

    Thanks.
    Post was primarily to gain further insight into considerations prior to any installers turning up.
     
  9. meady

    meady Member

    Also is there somewhere for the condense to go from the new boiler, if it goes to outside it needs to go into a soak away with limestone clippings or similar
     
  10. dubsie

    dubsie Active Member

    That boiler is full of asbestos pretty much the same as the old concord, you will need to have the boiler professional removed.
     
  11. Robert_1985

    Robert_1985 New Member

    Asbestos, awesome.
    Hadn't considered that, though it makes sense it could be in boilers of that age. Presumably the lagging round pipes as well...
     
  12. plumberboy

    plumberboy Well-Known Member

    That will push your cost up.:(
     
  13. meady

    meady Member

    I can guarantee you know one will get an asbestos company in to remove an old boiler with it in, it just gets ripped out like any old boiler
     
  14. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    With any luck the Kingfisher 11 was made after 1984, which is when all boilers had Asbestos banned from them, Kingfisher 1s have it in them.;)
     
  15. dubsie

    dubsie Active Member


    We get asbestos specialists on these boilers, we have a list with GC numbers and any positive boilers get passed directly to asbestos specialists. You have to remember you can't remove the boiler in one, the flue can only be dismantled by opening up the combustion chamber. It could be anything from gaskets to insulation pads and anything from white to blue asbestos. I don't know the details I just know that if there's asbestos inside I won't go near it.

    Any heating engineer stupid enough to open up one of these boilers is putting themselves and everyone who lives in that property at risk.

    There is plenty of work for us heating engineers without having to rip out hazardous waste, simply stupidity to take the risk.

    Here is an old list

    http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/landlords...to-contain-asbestos-containing-appliances.pdf

    Get the GC number and check it against the list.
     
  16. meady

    meady Member

    I know its dangerous and everything but how dangerous is it really, my grandad used to work in an asbestos factory.

    when he was eating his lunch he had to blow asbestos dust off his sand which before he ate it.

    He's nearly 80 now and all that's wrong with him is he's a fat git so the asbestos must of tasted good at least :)

    They also say that Mdf is the new asbestos but that hasn't need banned yet
     
  17. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    MDF isn't banned, but try getting a shed to cut it for you.
     
  18. dubsie

    dubsie Active Member

    I hear that everyday but the facts do not lie, thousands of plumbers and tradesmen die every year from Mesothelioma. It's been a slaughter from the moment they started mining and using the stuff. Trust me on this it really isn't worth the risk and for the sake of a thousand pounds to remove the boiler.

    MDF is a dust but chemically very different from asbestos, the bodies defence mechanism can not remove asbestos fibres thus triggering an inflammatory response. MDF can be removed from the body so a single exposure is very very unlikely to cause any problems at all.
     
    plumberboy likes this.

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