British gas

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Sparkielev, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    I was at a job today the customer had British gas out the day before her rcd wouldn't reset, she has a British general board his solution was to replace the faulty rcd with a chint rcd, is this allowed ? as I always thought you had to follow manufacturers instructions and not mix and match he also had to alter busbar
     
  2. stateit

    stateit Screwfix Select

    Do BG say not to use any other manufacturer's components in their instructions?
    (I don't know the answer to that, as I don't have a BG sheet in front of me)
    Either way, it got the customer out of a pickle, and you could replace it with a BG one yourself if the customer wished.
     
  3. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    Yeah true, she has insurance with British gas it not something I would of done just wondered why they did
     
  4. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    And what would happen if this db caught fire am sure the insurer would use this as get out clause, it surprised me a company of this size would bodge a job
     
  5. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    I'm surprised the BG "salesman", sorry "engineer" didn't tell her, she needed a complete rewire, and a new combi boiler while they were at it.
     
    longboat and Sparkielev like this.
  6. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    They condemned garage electrics and quoted her obscene amount of money to rewire it which was why I was there to do garage
     
  7. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    I'm not.
     
  8. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    Typical of British Gas. There is no mechanism in the wiring regulations to 'condemn' anything. They are supposed to do an inspection and report. Then comment satisfactory or unsatisfactory. It's rife this sort of practice.
     
  9. CraigMcK

    CraigMcK Screwfix Select

    Principally the standard (BSEN61439-3) does not allow you to mix devices unless they have been tested within that assembly. It is highly unlikely for BG to have tested a Chint device and vice versa.
    Any failures (that the new device contributed to) and BG would rightly so walk away from any responsibility. The reality is British Gas would be responsible as they were the last ones to touch it, although unless it is clearly written that they fitted another manufacturers device they may deny all knowledge
     
  10. Bob Rathbone

    Bob Rathbone Screwfix Select

    If the contract is the same as the BG central heating repair scheme, BG make it clear that they will fit their own choice of replacement part, and that it remains the property of BG. So if it catches fire, it is BG's kit that is faulty as they say they own it. I don't think they have thought this through.
     
  11. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    I agree that the consumer unit is type tested and that the manufacturer insists on its own devices being used. However, I think this is one area that does actually have its origins in commercial protection rather than 'type test'. All the devices are manufactured to the same BS EN standard, ie MCBs to 60898, RCBOs to 61009. So the performance characteristics won't differ significantly. The actual problem is that the devices all differ in shape. This presents fitting issues in that they don't sit correctly on the busbar nor do they match the height or width of the adjacent devices and may even stick out more. That's the problem, not the performance characteristics. Fire risk is increased because of the mismatch of the device in shape and therefore the security of the device on the busbar is compromised. Some devices are made the same shape but branded differently and these would definitely be ok to use. Personally I hate using the wrong device and go out of may way to avoid it. Appearance wise uniformity is best, too.

    Manufacturers wont agree on a uniform shape because market forces would dictate that the cheapest device is sort as a spare or replacement rather than proper one that's supposed to be used. It just won't happen.
     
  12. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    This was my issue the live and neutral are opposite way round on the chintz rcd he had bodge it to make it fit anyway I told the customer to tell to change it to bg rcd
     
  13. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    There is nothing to stop you building your own distribution board, however a consumer unit is type tested, so if you do anything not permitted by manufacturer it is no longer a consumer unit, it becomes a distribution board, now the crunch, you are should use a consumer unit where it is in the control of an ordinary person, but if it has a British Gas contract is it under the control of an ordinary person or British Gas?

    When I worked in large factories we would take out maintenance contracts for the catering machines, they were not PAT tested by us, as covered by a maintenance contract. This was I think to stop us having the keys and helping our selves to Mars bars and drinks. They were entered on the equipment register with the note under maintenance contract.

    Had one gone faulty and some one had got injured not sure what HSE would have said, I would guess they would ask the people who maintained them for the records, likely there would be non, as I think they only came out when they stopped working. As to if our firm would have been blamed for not asking for copies of maintenance records I don't know.

    Since British Gas could loose the contract at any time, I think it was wrong what they did, however as to being within regulations not so sure how they stand.
     
  14. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    I think if ever there was a fire insurer would would use this as a get out clause, don't know why the contractor would take a chance like this am sure if his superiors knew of it they wouldn't be best pleased
     
  15. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    Either the installation is OK in which case the building fire insurance covers, or it's not OK in which case British Gas's insurance should cover. I am sure British Gas does have professional indemnity insurance and if they have made an error it should pay out.
     
  16. CraigMcK

    CraigMcK Screwfix Select

    Just to confirm, all distribution assemblies are covered under one of the BSEN 61439 parts and all of them require design verification (type testing) to be carried out.
    I would expect an ordinary person to be able to reset an MCB in their own home, so irrespective of what devices are fitted it still falls under part 3, it's just no longer compliant as devices are swapped.

    I can assure you changing devices does make a difference, all MCB/RCBO are not made equal, their standard just shows the outer limits of acceptable operation, one could still heat up more than another and still pass.
    Using that, let's say Manufacturer A has very low temperature rise on his devices, he would take that into account on the enclosure, busbar design and all is well in the assembly test. Now Manufacturer B's that just scrapes by in its product test, again he takes account of that in the assembly with say a larger busbar.
    If you put a Manufacturer B MCB into a Manufacturer A assembly it could overheat.
    Also remember devices don't vent in the same direction, so a short circuit could see the wrong device venting live gas into the busbar.

    These are some of the reasons why manufacturers and the standard don't allow device substitution
     
    Sparkielev likes this.
  17. Lectrician

    Lectrician Screwfix Select

    Yes, MCBs have a venting hole on the back which differs between brands. If this ended up being fowled during a fault, the MCB may not be able to safely clear it. MCBs can also get warm during use. Some may getting warmer on the left, others on the right, some at the top, some at the bottom. Manufacturers take into account their breakers will be next to their breakers. I hate seeing incorrect MCBs installed. It's just lazy.
     
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