Can I temporarily insulate a conservatory roof?

Discussion in 'Builders' Talk' started by tonynoarm, Nov 12, 2006.

  1. lukechenault

    lukechenault New Member

    Hi All,

    Sorry to revive an old thread. Considering doing this work myself but I have "T" profile glazing bars instead of box section.

    I've attached a couple images showing the type of profile I have. Is it going to cause a leak if I screw the first set of battens through the bottom of the T profile off-centre?

    I'm tempted to go the stix-all route DA suggested to avoid this issue, but I really prefer screws where possible.

    Also, I noticed the interior plastic cladding that covers the underside of the glazing bars is fixed underneath the aluminium "keystone" in the centre of the roof. Has anyone removed the interior plastic cladding prior to the first set of battens? (images attached showing where the first set of battens have been fixed over the plastic cladding, I have an identical roof layout).

    Many thanks for any info!!

    Luke

    self-support-GB-system-6-277x279.jpg
    600raftergasket.jpg
    20130813_083144_resized.jpg
    20130813_161752_resized.jpg
     
  2. A whole winter has now passed by; it would be great to get some feedback for peeps who have done this work, as Rich has requested two posts back.

    ANYBODY?



    Hi Luke.

    I haven't done this job myself, so am only trying to give advice - but it's untested.

    First, will screwing through your profile cause leaks? Only if water is getting by the poly sheet seals in the first place. Having said that, would you want to take the risk?

    I wouldn't risk it. At all.

    What I'm pretty sure I would do now if it were me (and this was someone else's idea) is to remove all the internal plastic decorative trim, cut the insulation sheets accurately to fit complete with mitred edges cuts (and I personally wouldn't bother going over 35mm thick sheet of Celotex or similar), and I would bond them directly to the aluminium rails suing a trusted adhesive such as StixAll (lots of similar products out there, but this is one I've used for LOTS of jobs and really rate it.)

    I wouldn't rely on 'grab' here; I would brace the sheets gently in place until the adhesive had set.

    Once the insulation is in place and the seams taped at every join and around the perimeter (any obvious gaps betwixt the sheets can be carefully filled with a gentle squeeze of expanding foam), it's your call whether to simply 'line' it with that stuff I read about (but forget what it's called...) which is around 3mm thick, has great insulation properties in itself, and is reckoned to cover most decorative issues, or else board it with PVC or timber cladding.

    For the cladding option, a thought has chust occurred - if PVC (in particular) is prone to movement due to heat (and it is), then perhaps adhering this on to the insulation layer is perhaps not a good idea...

    I think, instead, what I would do is to bond timber battens (nothing as thick as 2x1s - half that thickness at the most) on to the sheets using StixAll again, and then tack the cladding to this once set. (Can't see that it matters too much if the cladding nails go right through into the insulation sheet.)

    Jobbie jobbied.

    Should the roof need repair or you simply wish to restore the connie back to how it was, just rip it all down, give the ali rails a perfunctory scraping with a blade and refit the plastic trims to hide the 'mess'.

    Jobbie unjobbed.


    These are only my own personal thoughts on this job. I'm pretty sure that's how I would approach it all now, and it's based on many people's ideas throughout this thread (using the 'always learn by other people's mistakes' principle... :rolleyes:)
     
  3. lukechenault

    lukechenault New Member

    Hi DA,

    Thanks for your input, I share your concern regarding the screws causing leaks. And I really like the idea of being able to restore the conservatory to it's original state if anything were to go awry.

    Have you ever tried taking stixall off aluminium? Does it come off with a hammer & chisel such that I could re-fit the plastic cladding.

    I've also already bought some superquilt as I thought stapling that to battens would be easier than celotex, but I've never used either before.

    From the images scooby posted, I can't see any fixings in his first set of batons, it looks like he's used an adhesive straight onto the plastic cladding (which prevents undoing the work at any point). Any thoughts on this? It seems like there would be too much flexing. I'd prefer to go on the aluminium rails.

    Unfortunately, I can't get the cladding off the rails without undoing the aluminium centre "keystone" piece for the conservatory that ties all the roof bars together. I don't have a picture of mine, I'll get one when I get home, this is the closest I could find online, but my aluminium centre covers the cladding of the glazing bars:

    http://images.priorconservatories.c...nservatory-Builder/internal-pvcu-cladding.jpg

    Could I undo one at a time, take out the cladding, then do it back up? I'd really prefer to not cause a leak or collapse the roof on my head if possible :)

    I definitely want to go down the PVC cladding route as it's so cheap and light, and it will flex with the conservatory movement. I was planning to staple it to the second layer of batons.

    Thanks!!!

    Luke

     
  4. lukechenault

    lukechenault New Member

    Here's an image I took of the end profile showing the T shape. Unfortunately I didn't get a good angle looking at how the underside capping is fit to the aluminium rail. I'll get a better photo when I get home.

    20140908_184141.jpg
     
  5. Hi Luke.

    No way will you need to remove the actual aluminium centre rail before getting access to the plastic cover strips - you might need to remove the centre rail's own plastic cover, but not the structural section! That plastic cover should also also just be a 'snap-on/off' job.

    Is there room at the bottoms (eaves end) of these plastic covers to unclip them there, or are they too tight to the eaves? Because if you could unclip them at the bottom then you'd be able to peel it away and then pull it down from under the centre cover - I'm pretty sure. Or even try unclipping the strip in the middle first, and when you pull that away the cover should pull up from the eaves and down from the centre cover - obviously don't bend the strip too much, but I bet it's pretty flexible.

    Looking at your last photo showing the end of the ali rail profile, is that a gap running along the underside/middle? If so, you could either try getting screws (if that's what you really prefer) into one of these 'flanges' 'cos no water will ever be running down there. But I personally wouldn't entertain screwing in to the 'side' sections.

    Will StixAll scrape away? Yes - you'd need a scraping knife probably with a sharpened end. StixAll dries like rubber - it's very tough and flexible, but it should be quite possible to 'cut' it away. So likely that a craft knife with these snap-off blades would do the job too - extend it a couple of inches, and run it smoothly flat against the ali surface. Or you could carefully use a chisel as you say, but only with gentle taps with a mallet - ie you'll be cutting/peeling the stuff off, not 'chipping'.

    If you really want to use the quilt you've already bought - and I don't blame you - then I guess you will need to start with timber battens first, then the quilt and then ideally another layer of battens? Doesn't the quilt need room to expand and puff-up a bit for maximum effectiveness? In which case the second layer of battens would allow this.

    But, I've no personal experience of quilt. So perhaps just the first layer of battens will do, then quilt stapled on and then your PVC cladding (and the cladding itself has decent insulation value too).

    Again, I'd go for no more than 12mm-ish thick battens here - nothing to be gained by going thicker (except you'd need to ensure that whatever nails you use for the cladding doesn't go right through and hit the ali).

    Oh, if your ali rails do have that slot seen in the photos, another batten-fixing method is to get something that will slide up that slot and be able to take a screw or small bolt. Possibly even small dry-wall fixings would do - y'know, the expanding 'butterfly' type? No adhesive at all required... Cool, huh? :)
     
  6. lukechenault

    lukechenault New Member

    No way will you need to remove the actual aluminium centre rail before getting access to the plastic cover strips - you might need to remove the centre rail's own plastic cover, but not the structural section! That plastic cover should also also just be a 'snap-on/off' job.

    We have an Edwardian conservatory, with an identical roof to the one Snoopy has. I've circled in red the part I'm trying to describe. You can see in the image that the glazing bars sit on top of this "keystone" and are bolted to it. It looks as if the bolt passes through the plastic cover, but can't say for sure, I'll get a close up when I get home :)

    20130813_083144_resized2.jpg

    Is there room at the bottoms (eaves end) of these plastic covers to unclip them there, or are they too tight to the eaves? Because if you could unclip them at the bottom then you'd be able to peel it away and then pull it down from under the centre cover - I'm pretty sure. Or even try unclipping the strip in the middle first, and when you pull that away the cover should pull up from the eaves and down from the centre cover - obviously don't bend the strip too much, but I bet it's pretty flexible.

    Perhaps, it looks like I may have to remove the cladding running around the top of the walls to get access to it. Has anyone removed this plastic capping from the inside before? Is it possible without damaging it?
    Unclipping from the middle may work, good idea. As long as it's not trapped at the top or bottom.

    Looking at your last photo showing the end of the ali rail profile, is that a gap running along the underside/middle? If so, you could either try getting screws (if that's what you really prefer) into one of these 'flanges' 'cos no water will ever be running down there. But I personally wouldn't entertain screwing in to the 'side' sections.

    My thoughts exactly. I think the flanges are too small to get a screw into, and I don't want to go for the outside sections in case it causes a leak.

    Will StixAll scrape away? Yes - you'd need a scraping knife probably with a sharpened end. StixAll dries like rubber - it's very tough and flexible, but it should be quite possible to 'cut' it away. So likely that a craft knife with these snap-off blades would do the job too - extend it a couple of inches, and run it smoothly flat against the ali surface. Or you could carefully use a chisel as you say, but only with gentle taps with a mallet - ie you'll be cutting/peeling the stuff off, not 'chipping'.

    Good to know it can be removed, I've tried getting gripfill off skirting before and it's not an easy job. It should come off easier on aluminium, but it sounds like stixall retains more flexibility, and doesn't cure hard like gripfill.

    If you really want to use the quilt you've already bought - and I don't blame you - then I guess you will need to start with timber battens first, then the quilt and then ideally another layer of battens? Doesn't the quilt need room to expand and puff-up a bit for maximum effectiveness? In which case the second layer of battens would allow this.

    That was my plan, following from what I've seen described here previously.

    But, I've no personal experience of quilt. So perhaps just the first layer of battens will do, then quilt stapled on and then your PVC cladding (and the cladding itself has decent insulation value too).

    I don't mind counter-battening, the wood is cheap, I'm just using lengths of 2x1.

    Again, I'd go for no more than 12mm-ish thick battens here - nothing to be gained by going thicker (except you'd need to ensure that whatever nails you use for the cladding doesn't go right through and hit the ali).

    Oh, if your ali rails do have that slot seen in the photos, another batten-fixing method is to get something that will slide up that slot and be able to take a screw or small bolt. Possibly even small dry-wall fixings would do - y'know, the expanding 'butterfly' type? No adhesive at all required... Cool, huh? :)

    I've also had that thought, that would be a superb solution if I can get something that fits in the internal slot and retains the first set of battens. The dry-wall butterflies I've seen look too large, but perhaps I can find something small that will sit inside that rail. That would be ideal, no leaks, positive fixing, easy disassembly if ever required, job done.

    If only I can get the plastic capping off!! :)

    Thanks for your help!
     
  7. I assembled a connie for my in-laws a decade ago. It also had a decorative 'cover/cowl' on the inside and outside in that location, but that's all it was - it had nothing to do with the connie's structure.

    It was the last piece to be fitted, and had a bolt that came right through from the outside piece (which I think had a decorative finial as well). It served to finish off the ends where all the main rails met, and also I guess provided a rain cover for it on the outside.

    But don't blame me if your connie collapses... :p
     
  8. lukechenault

    lukechenault New Member

    Haha, thanks. It looks structural to me for sure, it's a big cast aluminium piece, I'd be very surprised if anything else is holding the angled roof bars together.

    There was a decorative cover for that piece, I've removed it on mine, and so has Scooby in the picture above. If you examine it closely you can see the slots in it where the bolts come through from above.

    How else are those two angled glazing bars held in place? :)

    Thanks for the input - I need a manual showing how the conservatory was built, and I could reverse-engineer it from that.
     
  9. Ah. Ok, got you.

    Yep, the aluminium piece will be structural, but how the hell is that holding the decorative plastic covers in place?

    Oh... perhaps these covers were in place on the ali rails when the connie was assembled, and not added as the last 'finishing touch'?

    Ooops - sorry. Quick- get some scaffolding up to support your connie... :oops:

    Ok, if these plastic covers were in place when the rails were assembled so are not cut to fit in the gaps afterwards, then I can see your problem - the plastic trims will likely be going under other pieces.

    Ok, solution - cut the bar stewards. I mean, flush with the ali block where they will still be covered when the plastic decorative piece is refitted over that large ali block. Use a craft/Stanley knife, and cut straight across neatly - using the block as your guide.

    Don't try and cut it in one go - the knife will stick and then slip and cause lots of blood loss...

    Once through, remove the trim and leave the 'under' bit still 'under'...

    Will that work?
     
  10. lukechenault

    lukechenault New Member

    Cutting them is an option for sure, but I can't help notice they have rubber seals on them that seal against the poly sheets. For leaks or noise or holding securely in place, I don't know.

    Here's the close up pics of the aluminium key stone.

    IMG_20150701_173320090.jpg
    IMG_20150701_173325359.jpg
    IMG_20150701_173420558.jpg

    Currently it seems like cutting them off, or glueing directly to the plastic, or screw's through the plastic are the only options. But I'm open to ideas!?

    I did think about undoing one at a time, and doing back up minus the plastic, but it still seems to risky if you ask me. So I don't think that's an option.

    Thanks DA!
     
  11. Ooooh, good photos...

    That's more clear now, and I should really be doing this to my own connie (if I had one...) before suggesting to others what to do :oops:

    As you say, these are not just decorative covers, but have the rubber blades which seal against the polycarb roofing sheets. These must contribute to the draught proofing as well as just holding the sheets securely, so you don't want them removed!

    Sorry - I don't know what to suggest. If the ali frame underneath didn't have that gap running along its middle, then self-tapping screws would have been perfect (tho' it would always leave holes afterwards).

    I guess it's bite the bullet time... Adhesive, or try to catch the screws in the flange.

    Or, a completely self-supporting timber frame - I know some peeps have gone for this.
     
  12. chippie244

    chippie244 Super Member

    Or don't have a conservatory in Britain.
     
  13. lukechenault

    lukechenault New Member

    Haha, exactly. Believe me I didn't put it up! Useless things.

    Realistically, I think adhesive straight onto the cappings is the only game in town, I don't want to do anything that could cause a leak. Scooby has the same conservatory as me, and has done this. I'd love to know how he got on, I dropped him a message but haven't heard back yet.

    We've had quotes from professional companies to do the job, around £1,500 and up. It makes me wonder how on earth they planned to do it? Next time I'll ask them.
     
  14. benrpatterson

    benrpatterson New Member

    Hello everyone.

    So how are people getting on with their insulated conservatory roofs?

    I'm looking into this right now, but on all the threads i've found online i've never seen how people feel sometime gone after completing the job.

    Is it worthwhile? Would you recommend it being done?

    I have a fairly old lean to conservatory which i'd love to do, but really unsure how good this method is.

    Thanks a lot everyone!
    Ben
     
  15. Chris Sheraton

    Chris Sheraton New Member

    Well I'm still sitting underneath mine. Thanks to everyone on here for the tips and pointers.
    I had three options: £4500 for a lightweight roof, £1200 for made to measure blinds.. or my own effort and £550 of materials. Well chuffed with the finish, I've never sat in the conservatory as much.

    The Start:

    [​IMG]

    Batons up - Self tapping screws into the aluminium frame were surprisingly tough. That was my only concern as I planned the project but I quickly got confidence in the strength of the fixing.
    [​IMG]

    Insulation nearly done and re-batoned ready for shiplap finish.
    [​IMG]

    Just the angle trims to go. Really pleased with the finish.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. benrpatterson

    benrpatterson New Member

    Looks great!

    Any noticeable difference with the temperature?

    What about the light... does it seem much darker generally now?
     
  17. Chris Sheraton

    Chris Sheraton New Member

    Considerable on both counts. The glass roof wowed us during our first short house viewing but the reality was we felt exposed when sitting in there.

    We could rarely sit in there before because of the chill even on mild days. It's now useable any time.
    The reduced light was also something we wanted. With two glass sides it's enough.

    The white shiplap has helped keep it bright and clean and matches nicely with the PVC of the original frame.
     
  18. Cracking job, Grommit, er, Chris.

    And great having some feedback on its effectiveness too :)
     
  19. Julie M S

    Julie M S New Member

    Wow! That is fabulous! I'm researching the very same thing at the moment & glad I found this site, very informative. Seeing as you've now been refurbished for a while has it been a massive improvement? and can you still hear rain thundering down on the poly carbonate roof sheets? I look forward to your update hopefully.
     
  20. Julie M S

    Julie M S New Member

    It looks fantastic! We hope to do the same with our conserve, how long did it take for you to carry out the work? Can you still hear the rain on the roof when it pours down? Thanks.
     

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