CPC carrying live current, electrician says it is OK?

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by M3dic, Feb 8, 2016.

  1. nffc

    nffc Active Member

    Not when it is not accessible to touch. Then it would be a C1.

    See how I am able to debate without being rude?
     
  2. peter palmer

    peter palmer Screwfix Select

    A car not moving is comparable to the electric being switched off.
     
  3. madhatter1uk

    madhatter1uk Screwfix Select

    It is accessible to touch, its got incomplete insulation and no earth on the back box. Its pot luck whether it makes the back box live or not and thus the front screws.
    If we can't debate without insulting there's no point in posting. We all learn off each others encouters. Non of us have seen it all or know it all. I'm here to learn off you. If I'm wrong I want to know, and why I'm wrong.
     
  4. nffc

    nffc Active Member

    There are two different points there.

    1. Cpc used as a live conductor.
    2. No earth to an exposed conductive part (back box).

    These should be recorded as separate recommendations on an EICR IMO.
     
  5. fire

    fire Well-Known Member

    Short answer is No.
    Even if it works anyone that would come to repair it in the future would have difficulty figuring out what has been done.

    I cant even figure out why it would be wired like that, CPC goes to the CPC and CPC only. He probably made a booboo and would have to rip out cables to correct it. Tell him to rip out the cables and correct it full stop.

    I believe you are talking about this? If so get him take out the twin&erth and put in the right 3 core & earth. Nothing i hate worst than someone paying good money for a bodge job by incompetent fools.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Brian_L

    Brian_L Active Member

    If you got a real electrician, shouldn't take more than a minute to unscrew the switch and see what has been done. would be obvious a 2 way switch with all 3 terminals in use.
     
    Phil Hyde likes this.
  7. fire

    fire Well-Known Member

    Might not be an electrician that takes the switch off.
    A DIYer would most likely assume it is an Earth and probably try to correct it and connect it to the back box not thinking its a live and its in not actually in an earth terminal.

    Justifying it as, "well electricians will know what it is" does not make this right :confused::D
     
  8. Brian_L

    Brian_L Active Member

    I never said it is right, did I ? You was claiming it would be difficult for someone to understand what had been done.

    If a person is not competent they shouldn't be playing with it.
     
    nffc likes this.
  9. fire

    fire Well-Known Member

    True.
    So as to answer the original question in regard to this actually being the situation.
    Get the guy back and put it right :p

    Competence for spotting a bodge job or incompetent if you don't. Interesting point. ;)
     
  10. madhatter1uk

    madhatter1uk Screwfix Select

    Sometimes two c2 faults make 1 c1 fault
     
  11. sparky Si-Fi

    sparky Si-Fi Screwfix Select

    Just fix it, no spark on the planet will install using bare earth as a Live conductor, if he does, he needs shooting
     
    nigel willson and madhatter1uk like this.
  12. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    You need to understand the difference between a FAULTY or DAMAGED installation, where codes are appropriate, and DANGEROUS INSTALLATION PRACTICE. You are one of the many "sparks" who think you can code everything as though its okay. Installing a switch wire using the cpc as a live conductor is DANGEROUS PRACTICE and as such is plane wrong. You don't carry out ***** installation and give yourself a code you get the damned thing sorted and put right!!!!! It doesn't have a bloody code for goodness sake. Codes are for faulty and damaged installations and are NOT applicable to installations that are newly carried out and just downright WRONG. Get a grip. It is one thing having an opinion and another having a clear misunderstanding. I'll let you choose which category you fall in to. Stop trying to be a smart **** and take your misinformed misunderstandings elsewhere. I don't care if I am rude. Yes I am rude to people like you who argue the point on and on and on when they are arguing a completely different situation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
    sparky Si-Fi, Brian_L and Coloumb like this.
  13. dale76uk

    dale76uk Member

    2. with the exception of 1.0mm2 :)
     
    sparky Si-Fi likes this.
  14. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    Isn't there a part in the regs that says, 'A live conductor must be double-sheathed throughout its length' ?

    Mr. HandyAndy - Really
     
    fire likes this.
  15. dale76uk

    dale76uk Member

    Spoof post?? you seem to use terminology synonymous with electricians, ie. CPC
     
  16. dale76uk

    dale76uk Member

    not seen that one lol
     
  17. stu1312

    stu1312 Member

    I think it's that live conductors must have insulation along there length, the cable sheath of t&e doesn't count as insulation.
     
  18. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    There are terms in the regulations:

    Basic insulation.

    "Insulation applied to live parts to provide basic protection and which does not necessarily include insulation used exclusively for functional purposes."

    and

    Basic Protection

    "Protection against electric shock under fault-free conditions."

    Live Part

    "A conductor or conductive part intended to be energized in normal use, including a neutral conductor...."

    and

    416.1 Basic insulation of live parts

    "Live parts shall be completely covered with insulation which can only be removed by destruction."

    The Regulations contain all the requirements for installation practice. They don't specifically state what you can or can't do, this is a myth i.e. the Regs. won't say "you can't do such and such"...They never will. What they do is say what is REQUIRED and its then up to the installer to ensure it is. You won't find terms in the Regulations that say "you can't use a cpc as a live conductor" but the above is where it specifically requires basic protection along its entire length and terms throughout the Regulations cross reference to form the bigger picture. Unless people take the time and trouble to actually read the Regs. and know their way around them they will always tend to make loose general reference to the Regs. in an attempt to back up their own misguided argument just to make a point. This is endemic in the industry.
     
    Brian_L and Deleted member 33931 like this.
  19. madhatter1uk

    madhatter1uk Screwfix Select

    Insulated and protected with a sheath or other means of protection I think it used to be .there's a bit about protection of cables too somewhere isn't there. Sheathed or protected. Meaning you're not supposed to use unsheathed singles without protection.
    I haven't read the actual book for years, I just read guidance notes that quote regs
     
  20. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Indeed. To expand slightly - the regs make reference to SINGLE insulated LIVE cables, which is ok so long as they are enclosed in either aditional insulation, as in twin and earth, or are enclosed in some kind of container, as in an accessories or conduit. This is why single's are allowed inside light switches, sockets etc. and the outer insulation must go completely inside the container. It is not permitted to have a single LIVE insulated cable, as in an earth cable used as a live conductor, as it is only enclosed by the sheath of the the cable, as is the case here. An earth cable working as an earth cable does not require any insulation at all, but it is preferable.

    A lot of you will dis agree with my final statement and I would therefore like to see the reg that says otherwise. If it's found, and I can't find it, I will stand corrected.
     

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