Cracked joints over external door.

Discussion in 'Builders' Talk' started by old biker, May 2, 2016.

  1. old biker

    old biker New Member

    The joints in question are under a tiled pitched canopy. It would be difficult to put a support in as it would mean disturbing the canopy to get behind it for the necessary overlap. Likewise if I start pulling loose bricks out and the courses above start coming down it would mean removing the canopy to do a rebuild.

    Is there a quick fix such as would resin do the job? Note how close the joints are in the soldiers. I can't imagine normal mortar holding them together. WP_20160501_18_15_39_Pro.jpg WP_20160501_18_15_27_Pro.jpg
     
  2. KBJ

    KBJ Active Member

    What seems to have happened here is that some kind soul has re-pointed your soft red bricks with Portland cement. Portland and soft-reds are entirely incompatible as they expand and contract at different rates in the heat and cold and the bricks will eventually crumble and crack. Portland is rigid and brittle and, although a fine building material for modern high-fired clay bricks, does not allow for the natural expansion and contraction of the low-fired bricks. Re-pointing with a compatible lime mortar will solve the issue, as it allows for this 'movement', even with such narrow joints. If some of the bricks have been laid with Portland, it might be a bigger job, but you can get a 4" mortar-rake (I use the ones from these folks http://www.diamondblades.co.uk/) which fits onto the spindle of your disk-cutter - don't use a disk if you are not very experienced as you are likely to cut more brick than you are mortar. It's a dirty, but comparatively easy job to do.
     
  3. old biker

    old biker New Member

    Thanks for your comments and I take your advice on board. I think I might have to use a diamond cutter blade on the soldiers because the joints are only about 3 to 4 mm, but a good portion of the joints are accessible above the door frame so should not be a problem.

    I'm glad you mentioned about the Portland, I didn't know that, although the existing pointing was before my time. The house is 1920's built. My only concern is securing the brickwork so I can replace the door & frame.

    Thanks again.
     
  4. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

    There might not be a lintel.

    Does look like the opening could have possibly been altered in the past?

    If it's a solid wall construction (i.e no cavity - very likely), what type of lintel is above the window openings for the rest of the house?

    One solder brick is narrower than the rest. 65mm , is the rest of house built using 3" bricks?
     
    FatHands likes this.
  5. KBJ

    KBJ Active Member

    The easiest stuff to use is NHL 3.5. For pointing, mix it 4:1 with sharp sand. Ordinarily, you would want the mixture fairly dry as it cures by absorbing water, but as it's under cover, add a little more than normal and you should be fine. Whatever you do, don't let a builders merchant fob you off with building lime as it's no use for this application. The best bet is to order online from a specialist provider. One bag will easily do the trick and you will have plenty left over for any other bits of rogue Portland you find. Don't recess the mortar joints as they work best if they are flush with the surface so any moisture runs off. Use gloves, as it's quite unkind to the skin, and do wear goggles as it stings like budgery if you get it in your eye.Once it's dry to the touch, pack it in with a stiff-bristle brush and clean off any residue as it will stick to anything - including glass!
     
  6. old biker

    old biker New Member

    Jitender, yes it's typical 1920's house with no lintels under the outer skin. All openings are built off the frames. All the other frames have been replaced, this is the only problem one.

    KBJ, yes it looks like local merchants only stock the hydrated lime.Although T&P show it on their website the local branch manager says it is not on his system. As you say looks like it will have to be ordered online. I remember my late Dad warning me about lime when I was a little kid and he was a builder.
     
  7. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

    I have a feeling that there is no lintel here.

    So would require the removal ofcanopy to fit the door and frame
     
  8. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

    I would look at getting a single leaf catic lintel installed. This would require the removal of porch.

    When the other frames were installed were any lintels put in?

    You can get lime NHL3.5 from ebay available in different colors.
     
  9. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    I'm with Jit on this one, re no lintel.

    Also I'm not convinced they are soft red so, I'm saying they are a hard clay type brick.

    As for using Portland on soft reds?????? Laid thousands of them with Portland cement.
     
  10. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

    Look at installing a window tray above lintel also. I ended up using DPC on the roll as was easier to shape.

    I reckon with careful spacing the 65mm brick could be taken out and the rest of the perps opened up, fit weep vents @450mm spacing (2 would be fine for a door way).

    My parents house 1950-60's was like this, had to install 9 lintels in total. Windows were crittal with steel sub frames. Door frame/combi was as yours, outer course was just supported by the wooden frame.

    Have you had cavity insulation added?

    Wen the brick are removed, make sure that it is clear, as there may be a lot of muck down there.
     
  11. old biker

    old biker New Member

    I think you missed my post above. There are no lintels in the outer skin of brickwork and no cavity, the house is 1920's built.

    This is the last opening in the house which requires a new frame, all other windows and doors have been done. I am not embarking on a major demolition and rebuild job, I just need to know that I can keep the brickwork in place while the frame is changed. According to my son who fabricates the doors and windows, the frame will keep things in place once fitted.
     
  12. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

    Very likely that the brickwork will sag when the frame is removed as joints already loose.

    Would still recommend putting in a lintel, in either case.
     
  13. KBJ

    KBJ Active Member

    I don't doubt it, and I am grateful for the business putting it right. Keep up the good work!

    http://limeclad.com/onewebstatic/75894efebf-spalling.png
     
  14. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

  15. KBJ

    KBJ Active Member

    Easy one to answer Phil. Spalling happens when you use Portland cement with low-fired clay bricks. The lime mortar with which the bricks should be used, is softer than the bricks and therefore acts as the 'sacrificial' element of the wall, i.e. it crumbles away in time (usually the same lifespan as Portland) and requires repointing. Because it is soft, it allows for a certain amount of movement in the wall caused by the expansion and contraction from heat and cold. Portland is a fine building material, but it does not share the same capability and remains static, and a lot harder than the bricks. When the two are used together, the brick becomes the sacrificial element and cracks and crumbles. Another reason the two are incompatible is that lime mortar is water-permeable. It acts as a conduit to moisture, allowing it to evaporate from the mortar joint. If that joint is replaced by Portland, which is essentially waterproof, the moisture has to make its way out through the next most permeable thing, which is usually the bricks. As the water is drawn into the bricks, it leaves behind the dissolved salts from the wall. These accumulate and crystalise on the surface, causing the white 'bloom' so often seen on walls. In addition, any moisture in the bricks will expand with heat, and freeze when it's cold enough, this further degrades the surface, Hope that answers your question. Kevin.
     
  16. Tom.sawyer

    Tom.sawyer New Member

    Great to see some good advice coming from this post. I would recommend going with a specialist coloured hydraulic lime mortar (nhl 3.5) as they will be able to help you with your requirements exactly and even do a colour match. Most of the lime companies will either sell you builders sand, which is not really up to the job and doesn't look great either and sell you bagged lime. Personally, with most projects I work on I usually go for easiest route, which is why I use ready mixed lime mortar. I normally buy from Limetec as its next day delivery and stupidly easy to use. (just add water)
     
    KBJ likes this.

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