Default Damp causing gapping - DPM question

Discussion in 'Carpenters' Talk' started by Goldensw, Mar 16, 2015.

  1. Goldensw

    Goldensw New Member

    Hi,

    I would be grateful if someone could help me with my issue.

    About a year ago, I purchased a new build home and had laminate floor put on the ground floor on concrete.

    Everything was fine for the first 6 months however around September time, I noticed all the planks started opening up on the top and bottom part which gradually kept getting worse.

    I phone up the company who fitted it who sent a guy over to check the expansion gaps and it turned out that the floor wasn't touching anywhere.

    They then sent over an 'independent' person to assess it and I was told that the report showed damp. Now they said that it's their fault as they should have checked that beforehand and put a DPM however even though they agree that they have to swap the floor, they refuse to just put a DPM and said that my options are:

    a - lift up the floor and live on concrete for 2-3 months till the floor dries out because apparently the humidity remains too high to relay it
    b- put DPM latex (Uzin) which would cost me (?) an additional £800 (!) for roughly 30sqrm2

    I told them why don't you put a DPM underlay now and I take full responsibility if the issue happens again however they said it's not an option and I could still take them to court regardless.

    Is it true that putting a DPM underlay won't do the trick and the floor needs to dry out first? Apologies for my ignorance I just don't understand the difference between DPM underlay and latex

    Obviously I can't afford the extra cost nor 3 months of living on concrete because of our babies so I've already had a chat with a solicitor and will be getting my own evaluator but some further advice would be great in case they're willing to find a normal compromise as I feel that none of this is my fault hence now it became my problem for some reason.

    Any advice would be very appreciated.

    Thanks a lot.
     
  2. dwlondon

    dwlondon Active Member

    I think you need to establish the condition of the concrete base, and if it was laid with a dpm, otherwise it will always be damp. So you will have to lift the laminate floor, let it dry, and keep testing. If it reads consistently damp then you have a bigger problem.
     
  3. Goldensw

    Goldensw New Member

    Thanks dwlondon.

    No it wasn't laid using DPM hence the issue I think. Even if the concrete was not completely dry, this would surely have prevented the issues.
     
  4. dwlondon

    dwlondon Active Member

    So did they also lay the concrete?
     
  5. Goldensw

    Goldensw New Member

    No the concrete was laid by the builder and this company only came to put the flooring down a few months after I bought but they failed to check hunidity levels before proceeding
     
  6. dwlondon

    dwlondon Active Member

    the concrete should have dried out within a few months, so something is keeping it moist. if that is the case, you need to deal with that first.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
  7. chippie244

    chippie244 Super Member

    Read the answer about DPM :(
     
  8. dwlondon

    dwlondon Active Member

    Yeah not sure about laying a new dpm over the concrete if its the concrete which is damp. the damp will travel somewhere else and may well do the same thing to the laminate flooring.
     
  9. Goldensw

    Goldensw New Member

    What about the warerproof liquid membranes that can be applied to up to 95%RH? Wouldn't that be enough to keep any moisture underneath?
     
  10. dwlondon

    dwlondon Active Member

    That's what you are expected to believe. But water gets about and reappears elsewhere.

    assuming the builders laid a decent dpm, then water is getting in above the dpm. so you would need to look about the base of the building to see if any topsoil or pathways etc are above the damp proof course. there might be a faulty pipe leaking.
     
  11. Golden, I don't know if that laminate floor should have had a specific DPM put down first - is that normal practice (I'm asking flooring experts)?

    Or is the issue here that the flooring coves should have put one down since they recognised that this was a new concrete floor which would likely not be fully dried out yet? Ie - these flooring guys were meant to have worked that out and taken the responsibility of putting down an extra DPM?

    I don't know which of these is the 'correct' scenario.

    However, full marks to these flooring guys for accepting responsibility and offering to replace the floor.

    And I can understand their reluctance to now just put down a DPM as they clearly feel that won't be good enough - they seem to think there are other issues with your floor, with it still being damp after all this time.

    Obviously no-one on here can tell you which is the case.

    However, I'm very surprised that your concrete floor is still showing damp after a year. Yes, I know it's been covered with flooring, but these things breathe and just about anything will dry out in a year inside a home - unless there are further issues contributing to that dampness.

    I suspect you are going to need independent expert advice here.

    If the flooring guys are saying "We can detect too much damp in this floor and a DPM won't be enough of a guarantee of it being ok", then I think you need to accept what they say. They are quite right, I believe, in not simply accepting your promise of not taking action if it goes wrong - they could still be found responsible if it went wrong by a half-decent solicitor.

    If I were you, I'd be wanting to know why the floor is still damp. This could be down to a few reasons:

    1) the concrete floor really hasn't dried out yet. That strikes me as being a bit unlikely given the time, and it must also have been nearly dried out at least before you moved in - did the floor look damp?! Or was it 'concretey' and dusty? Ok, there probably would still be some damp trapped in there, especially if the house was cold, but this should have been released slowly over the next months, easily at a rate that would have evaporated off harmlessly. And why was your laminate floor ok for the first 6 months?! If it survived that initial time, it should certainly have been ok afterwards...

    2) Or, you have existing DPM issues. Eg the DPM laid by the builders was ripped or has a hole or summat. If you look at the material involved, it's frankly a bludy miracle that this doesn't happen more often... Is your flooring affected in a localised place, or all over?

    3) Or, as DW says, could this moisture be getting in above or in the concrete base layer? A faulty DPC in the walls allowing rising damp which goes into the floor? Leaking CH pipes, etc.

    If the concrete floor is still damp, I would take advice as to whether the best solution is to 'seal in' that damp using a latex DPM coating...

    And, really, baby or not, if that floor is damp then I reckon it needs to be allowed to dry out fully before you try anything else.

    If the 'proper' DPM has been breached underneath, and moisture will continue to rise up and soak that concrete slab, I just wouldn't be happy with that latex layer being the only thing keeping it out of my house... Any chance that the concrete under any latex DPM could become mouldy? And, as mentioned above, if you do simply place an extra latex layer over the top of the concrete, where is the moisture in that slab going to go?! Fair chance it'll make its way to the edges of the floor, and up the walls behind your skirting.


    If the 'proper' DPM is not working properly, then the house's builder is liable, and that imo is what should be sorted. But first you need to establish what the real issue here is.

    By all means get legal advice, but please don't start haranguing the floorers if they are currently playing by the book.

    You may well have an unpleasant few months ahead if it's concluded that your concrete slab does need to be allowed to dry out first and the root cause identified. That's no-one's fault - just an unfortunate and unpleasant situation that your builder needs to sort.

    If it turns out to be a faulty DPM, I don't know if you can also claim additional compensation from the builder for your woes? I'm think there must be some sort of breathable flooring that can be put down to make the house liveable whilst the floor dries out.

    If it ever will...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2015
  12. Goldensw

    Goldensw New Member

    " full marks to these flooring guys for accepting responsibility and offering to replace the floor." Sorry but I don't think so - this is the absolute minimum they can do.

    Think about this way: they're offering to charge me £800 to put something down which after having contacted multiple flooring companies all said that a. it wasn't the right the product to use as the floor won't be glued down and b. the cost is absolutely ridiculous. Essentially, they're offering to replace my flooring whilst trying to recoup some of the costs by having me overpay something else.

    I was also told by all other experts that a new build + concrete floor should always mean that a DPM underlay should be put it.

    Essentially my problem and the reason I have contacted a solicitor is the fact that there's no way the floor will take 3 months to dry (I have friends who had a leak whilst they were on hols for 2 weeks and the whole house was destroyed and only required 2 weeks to dry during very cold weather too) in an attempt for me to go for another option for which I'm getting ripped off.

    When I say the laminate was fine for the first 6 months, I has small gaps from day 1 which I was willing to accept due to poor workmanship but once the weather started getting colder (flooring's first winter) that's when it started becoming gradually worse. The concrete wasn't wet at the time by any means but the house was cold for months which didn't help the situation I guess.

    I'm not against getting it fixed or get to the bottom of this but I shouldn't be asked to pay or be inconvenienced for such a long period for a mistake that the contractor did. If the floor wasn't ready to be put down at the time, they could just have told me so or put the proper materials. Instead they decided to go ahead anyway and now it has now backfired.

    Also, I haven't seen the actual report myself regarding humidity and they avoid telling me what the measured levels were for some bizarre reason...
     
  13. KIAB

    KIAB Super Member

    Most laminate underlays like 'Sonic Gold' comprises of a dense foam underlay combined with a foil dpm, as long as the joints are taped with a alumium tape, you get an effective moisture barrier.

    As to the concrete floor sealing in the damp with a latex DPM coating isn't the right approach in my opinion, you'll just move the problem elsewhere, & it will come back to bite you, the correct course of action is to take up concrete floor & relaid it with the proper dpm.

    If you have the evidence to prove no dpm fitted, then consider the small claims court, compensation for faulty services provided by the builders.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
  14. Ok, fair enough, Golden - you have filled in a few things for me.

    One of the Qs I asked was "should all laminate floors have a DPM put down first?" You have answered that for me (as has KIAB) - with a 'yes' - so clearly these guys failed to do that (which is pretty carp...).

    In which case what they are obliged to do now is to relay a new floor with that DPM - what they should have done in the first place. We both agree on that? And that's all you want them to do?

    However - as you say yourself - the concrete should not still be damp after 3 months, or a year. And I agree with that too.

    So it does sound as tho' there are bigger issues here; one year on, and your floor is still damp?

    Can you confirm what you flooring guys are saying? Is it essentially along the lines "We believe there are inherent damp problems in your concrete floor, so there is simply no point in us laying a new floor even with a DPM layer because that won't actually stop the damp problem, and the chances are this floor will also be affected?"

    If so - that seems quite reasonable to me. Yes, they could just do as you ask and write on the form "New floor laid on a DPM against our advice as we believe there's an inherent damp problem with the floor which will continue to cause problems. No warranty or guarantee offered." But we all know that, if this floor also goes pear-shaped, most people (I'm not saying you...) would kick up a stink, make all sorts of claims, and will **** off this flooring company any time they can. Is it worth that risk to them? No, it isn't. So I can see that they are doing the 'right' thing here.

    You really need to find out if your existing DPM is breached and will continue to cause problems - it does seem as tho' something is amiss here. I, personally, wouldn't be happy with a latex layer applied over the top; I would expect the builders to remove the floor and relay it properly.

    Perhaps that's a bit harsh, I dunno, but a coating of latex seems like a huge compromise to me. (But I'm not a builder or expert in this in any way.)

    Next step - professional independent advice on where the damp is coming from?

    Have you tried contacting the builders themselves - you never know, they might say "Yep - we've messed up - we'll sort it."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2015
  15. Goldensw

    Goldensw New Member

    I do have evidence that no DPM was fitted and it sits under my laminate floor (standard foam underlay).

    Don't get me wrong, I don't want to claim any money for compensation - I just want this to be fixed properly and in a professional manner. I'm willing to accept this was an error on their side and just want to work with them so that this can be resolved because at the moment I feel they're trying to trick me and reduce their costs for fitting a new floor that's all. They did a rush job by not measuring humidity levels, no time left for acclimatisation so none of that helped the situation.

    I went to a solicitor initially because in case they keep refusing to properly accept responsibility for all this and come up with an acceptable solution then I can start filing a claim.
     
  16. Goldensw

    Goldensw New Member

    Devil's Advocate - I don't know how damp the concrete is because they refuse to send me the report. There's no point in me going to the builders with nothing saying some guys measured it and it's still damp.

    The thing is that having the flooring on top of the concrete along with standard underlay definitely didn't do any good as surely any moist was trapped and got in the underlay too. What the guys are saying is that 'you can wait 3 months' (which they know I can't really afford given my circumstances) or pay us £800 for us to fix it. If it was the builder who fitted the floor and there was an issue they would relocate us until the property can be occupied again. Obviously that's not ideal but at least that's something and I'm not looking for the fitters to do that but at the same time the way the options were presented and the ridiculous cost they want to charge me make me question how seriously they're admitting it's their fault and want to fix this.

    They could have said something like, we'll take the flooring up, bring you dehumidifiers and come and re-measure 2 weeks later. The way they presented the FOC option (wait 3 months and see IF it gets fixed) shows to me that they're pushing for the other option for which a. they want to charge me and b. OVER-charge me to recoup costs

    As you said all I want is for this be fixed and I'm not after any compensation from them whatsoever
     
  17. Golden, when we say 'DPM', we are referring to the 'proper' DPM which should be under your concrete floor, as fitted by your house builder. That may have been torn or breached in some way during the build, and could be the cause of the floor still being damp.

    Yes, we know the flooring peeps haven't fitted their 'DPM underlay', but we are concerned there are greater issues at play here.

    I mean, if there is no 'DPM Underlay' fitted, then your concrete slab should have had a better chance to have dried out fully!

    Obviously, from this side of the screen, we can't tell if the only problem you have is that the floorers didn't put down their DPM Underlay, or whether there is real damp still coming up from below that concrete slab. I certainly haven't a clue.

    It looks as tho' the floorers suspect that's the case - they want to see evidence of that concrete slab drying out properly before bothering to put down a new floor. And, if it doesn't dry out, then you do have a real problem.
     
  18. Goldensw

    Goldensw New Member

    The damp course above the second brick has been put it but as you said, I don't know if it's been compromised however, rising damp causing humidity to such levels that the flooring can't be put down should show some exterior signs such as mould around bottom corners of internal walls or bricks turning white on the outside beyond the damp course which isn't the case.

    If they're so confident that the issue is due to a failing damp course underneath the concrete, then why won't they share the actual report with me? And most importantly, why offer a quick fix solution knowing that it's the wrong thing to do and also try to make money out of this. Some things just don't add up....
     

  19. I sympathise, Golden - hellish situation for you.

    The only way forward that I can see is a truly independent professional report on the damp and its cause. That's the only thing I can see will sort this, I'm afraid.

    You could try a recorded delivery letter to the flooring company telling them that's what you intend to do - unless they give you sight of their damp report.

    I know it might seem as tho' the thin foam underlay will trap moisture but, really, water just 'wants' to evaporate! You leave a plate full of water sitting on your floor, and in a couple of days it'll be dry. Your concrete slab has had a year, and not even underlay is going to stop that drying.

    My in-laws had a leaking washing machine a few years back - it was so bad that when you walked into their kitchen water squelched up between the laminate flooring joints when you stood on it. It was soaked.

    I fixed the W/M, put newspaper down to catch the water coming up through the gaps, but they basically just left the front door open whenever they could and got on with it. No trace of water after a week, and the damp patches I could see on the bare flooring under the laminate (under the kitchen units) were gone after a further week. And that was a soaked concrete floor.

    A year on and your floor is still damp? Phew...
     
  20. KIAB

    KIAB Super Member

    Would have thought you solictor would have got a copy of the report.
    Small claims court isn't just there to claim compensation, but to recover the expense of the work in retifiying the inital problem.
    Waiting 3 months ain't going to solve anything, they could go bust in that time, good you have proof no dpm fitted, but I would think you need also need a independent report to support this.
    From what you have said, I can't see any progress to a solution, small claims court, they also have mediation service if the other party agrees.
    Think you should pop into your local CAB office, they can give you the latest advice on steps to take.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice