DIY GAS disasters waiting to happen.

Went to a gas fire in late 80's, the guy decided to get it looked at after being advised he ought to, as he "Didnt feel too well" when it was turned on. Big black stain up the chimney breast had ruined his wallpaper too. Having removed the fire from wall we discovered the flue had been cut off level with the rear of the fire and it was fixed to solid plaster. On asking who had installed it he sheepishly admitted he had, and "didnt know what the flue was for and it was in the way" so cut it off.
He was rather horrified when we informed him his fire was scrap, then nearly cried upon realising he could have killed his family.

 

The reasons I think that so many are prepared to diy are mainly related to the general epidemic of diy across the board and despite the cries of "gas is dangerous" there are not too many reported cases of accidents involving gas that are due to incompetent installations as such.

It doesn't help telling people they shouldn't do it...they need more pertinent information about all that is involved in the job and why...don't say "don't use push fit" explain why push fit isn't suitable etc...

 

Run up to Christmas I was averaging a call a day for estimates to intall LFE fire sourced from the sheds.

In every case I was expensive (bearing in mind what has to be done) with ballpark quotes over the phone. No doubt a lot of these fires have been fitted and were working by Christmas

 

The answer is simple - some people are very, very stupid. This isn't going to change in a hurry - so we have two options.
1) Let people do whatever daft things they want to, just try to minimise the harm they can do to others by this process and in this way kill themselves and so bump up the average IQ of the population.
2) Increase the powers and supervision of the nanny state.

Tango

 

Forget about paying a fortune for gas.
Eat a few tins of cheap baked beans then lie in the bath.
DIY or what?

 

what about option 5
stop b+q, do it all , homebase and all diy shops from selling gas fixtures and fittings. have gas fittings available from plumbers merchants, where the buyers have accounts, and are vetted to be approved fitters.
Its time that corgi took this step, instead of spending all their time chaseing the already registered and compident plumbers, giving us a hard time,( cos its easy money) and do something about it. so come on corgi.


bingo somethings just clicked in my mind.
corgi is a dog.
a dog used to by law have a dogs licence.
it was scraped because the good dog owners registered and wer'nt a problem. it was the bad dog owners, who could not be caught, because the good dog owners were not creating enough finance for the governing body to catch the bad dog owners. ring a bell ????

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head there tomplumb.
On only one occasion have I ever fitted a gas appliance. This was when my father died & I had his fairly new gas cooker.
I cleared his house & the cooker was on a flexible bayonet fitting like my old one.
When I went to plug it in at home I found the fitting was larger than my existing one.
I went to a plumbers merchant for a fitting for it & was told that it was illegal to fit it myself.
They still supplied me with the fitting & a tin of Rocol to seal it.
I did it at my own peril but would never touch any other gas fitting.
Cost is the main factor in people doing it themselves especially when the just can't afford to get a corgi registered person to do the job.
I'm not condoning it but just pointing out a prime reason why it is done.

 

As Tango says - we could have a total nanny state where the public were not able to buy gas, electrical and one day, water fittings but I don't want to live in such a place.

Just taking gas fittings as an example, does any gas fitter out there really think they could stock one of each model of gas appliance or even carry sales brochures for every product on the market??? - I don't think so. Even the big warehouses have to rely of central distribution to meet the massively varied demand.

Do you remember when you could only buy the kak on offer at the local Gas Board showroom - or the days when you could have any telephone you want as long as it was black and would be installed sometime next year. Thankfully times have moved on from the dark state monopoly days.

The public have to be able choose AND buy whatever appliances they want to. It has become our right!

There are laws to ensure that manufacturers make safe items. There are laws preventing the public from legally commissioning them. If they are going to break the law what is to stop them finding a black market for appliances if they became regulated? (there are even laws to prevent them using mobile phones whilst driving)

So here's the really controversial bit - If the gas industry published a broad table of charges the public might be more inclined to factor it into their budget.

Yes, I fully understand that every job is different but to allow "market forces" to dictate the cost of every individual task means that the general public are fearful of being ripped off at every opportunity.

Yep, and I know that there are a lot of honest hard working installers out there too, but it only takes a few to completely wreck the industry reputation.

The goverment seems to have regulated the commissioning and maintenance but not the cost!!! Is it any wonder people DIY?

 

Whatever you do there will always be those who think they are above the law, they know best and they're going to do what they want. Those who choose to diy without the knowledge required to save a few quid could install unsafe wiring and electrocute somebody but I dont believe thats regulated?? Im not condoning this practice, I am a qualified plumber but I am getting a CORGI engineer to connect and commision my new boiler because I understand A). Its illegal for me to do it, and B). I'm not sure how to do it. There will always be people who drive without a licence, tax or MOT and statiscally they must be more dangerous, but they think the law doesn't apply to them so nobody is going to stop them doing it.

 

I would be interested to know the number of deaths resulting from DIY gaswork, and how many of those were innocents - e.g. neighbours of somebody who blew their house up - (Wives of guys who DIY it badly don't count!)

Also I wonder what the rationale was behind having a rule for gas, but not for electric!

Tango

 

Cant give any figures but I believe it was the Ronan Point disaster in 1969 that made the Gas industry get serious about safety, yet it has only been in the last few years that CORGI membership has become compulsory. My former boss was quite disgruntled that he had to undergo training and assessment on a job he'd being doing for last 30 years with no problems.
I suppose electricity hasnt caused a disaster of such magnitude that its made people sit up and take notice of the dangers involved. Also the fact it'll either shock or cause a fire whereas gas doesnt give you a chance to avoid the consequences.

 

Not so many years ago registration was not required by someone working with gas. There was however a basic liability, for anyone working in any trade, that nothing was done to endanger life or property. This still applies to day. The basics of gas safety remain much the same as ever and, while technical advances have been made, the level of expertise required remains moderate.

I believe registration is a negative step because, it encourages people to carry out work in a subversive way (reluctant to get their work checked), the workforce dwindles pushing up prices and places pressure on fitters to endorse other's work, the registration is often held by third parties covering employees, and it implies quality of work..

I think a better system would be for the statute requirement of gas companies to check and verify installations on a recurring regular basis

 

firstly- i agree that the laws are there for a reason and not just any one should "mess" with gas, and also electric too. i can remember some i know asking me why his electrics didnt work after hed made a connection, and asked how tight the knot should be. but personally there is only one person in the world i trust with my life, although i appreciate the time and money that goes into the education of heating 'engineers' at the end of the day they are still people, and people make mistakes. plus there are still so many people out there claiming to be corgi reg'd but arent, for example there where a few on certain popular tv show not long ago, its not hard to make a corgi card! and not quite as life threatening is the ridiculous price some of them charge.
so i still will do it myself, reading instructions isnt hard and as long as common sense is used (yes i appreciate thats hard to find amongst most diy'ers) then i cant see a problem, and i know all the corgi guys will hate me for saying this but domestic gas work, installing/commisioning boilers etc isnt exactly rocket science, i wouldnt even call it engineering (lets not get into that one though). im not saying any old moron should have a go, gas is dangerous but should respected rather than feared.
i cant remember where i read it but it applies in this case- "rules are there to control idiots and to guide wise men".

 

i also agree that we should have laws re gas installations, to prevent the local village idiot blowing his house up.
but when i see a so called corgi fitter charge me over 200 quid for less than 4 hrs work, and i never saw him use anything more technical then a wrench. no tester, no sniffer. then i will continue to use my own common sense and skills to fit a bayonet male and female together.

i certainly feel safer using my own fairy liquid/water than using that plumber again.
let the trade clean up their own act first, then start on us diy,ers.

 

Rusty and Ormus,

I agree with you to a certain extent, however as a DIY'er myself who has read extensively in the area of gas I understand that the fitting of gas pipework is not particularly difficult - no more so than water pipes - it helps to have suitable leak detectors (and WU liquid will not detect very small leaks!) and pressure testing equipment, but you could get those as required if you smell gas. Main thing is that a little knowledge can be very dangerous, the same with electricity. Knowing the basics when 95% of the job is basic can make it seem that DIYing it is the way to go. Point is the other 5% can kill you.
"Fitting a boiler isn't exactly rocket science"
No, it's not - but for example do you know sufficient about fluid dynamics to calculate pipe sizes for a given demand, run length and number of bends. A good gas fitter will not even have to think about these things, but if you DIY it you certainly would!

As far as cost goes I always believe in money for the job, not the time. If I quote somebody for a job and then do it in half the time they expect me to, I expect to be thanked for efficient work, not criticised for charging the same!

I'm quite happy to hang a boiler, and do the pipework except gas, but I'd rather leave the gas to someone with a bit more experience than me!
Incidentally for CORGI reg fitters in your area, visit the corgi web site -they have a list...

Tango

 

We have covered this in a previous thread, I wrote the gas regulation that covers this, but to sum up, DIY'ers cannot install a gas appliance, including boilers, this means that you cannot hang the boiler, make the water connections and get someone in to do the gas, this is the law and you are breaking it by doing so, visit your local library and look up the regulations, the book is called Safety in the Installation and use of Gas Systems and Appliances Gas Safety (Installation and use) regulations 1998

Stop going over subjects that have already been answered, read the regs, YOU CANNOT touch gas, or gas appliances unless you are competent to do so, eg. hold relevant ACS certificates and be Corgi registered, it makes no difference if it your own house or not

We know that diy'ers will continue to mess around with gas, we can't stop that, but, you are breaking the law

 

Real Plumber,

What is your problem??

For a start if threads are duplicated then so what - why exactly is this a problem for you?

Secondly, the topic of this thread is different from the previous one, although they cover the same area.

Thirdly you are quite incorrect about being able to hang the boiler yourself - so stop trying to quote the law. I won't repeat myself (it would be pointless anyway) but where grey areas exist, from a legal perspective, then the law is useless anyway.

I imagine this topic will come up time and time again in the future, just like several other topics have already done. So if you don't want to repeat yourself don't read 'em and don't answer them.

I can understand that you may be concerned about DIY'ers fiddling with gas when they don't know what they are doing. But as you put it, you can't stop people.

So for god sake chill out and stop taking this whole forum so seriously!


Tango

 

A man goes skydiving for the first time.

After listening to the instructor for what seems like days, he is ready to go.
Excited, he jumps out of the plane.
After a bit, he pulls the ripcord.
Nothing happens.
He tries again.
Still nothing.
He starts to panic, but remembers his back-up chute.
He pulls that cord.
Nothing happens.
He frantically begins pulling both cords, but to no avail.

Suddenly, he looks down and he can't believe his eyes. Another man is in the air with him, but this guy is going up!
Just as the other guy passes by, the skydiver -- by this time scared out of his wits -- yells,
"Hey, do you know anything about skydiving?"

The other guy yells back, "No! Do you know anything about gas stoves?

 

Tangoman

So you think I am taking this forum too seriously, well I do when it concerns safety, safety I feel is not a joke and where is this grey area, there is no grey area, read the regulations, these are British Law it is written in them in black and white in plain English, DIYer's can not touch gas end of story.

I am fed up giving advice to DIY people on this site who choose to ignore it, because they think they know better, I have 23 years experience in the plumbing and heating industry, I design and install domestic and commercial systems, I know the gas and water regs inside out and yet people like you think you know better, well get on with it, I for one will not visit this site again to pass on my knowledge and I would urge other trade professionals to do the same, don't waste your time gentlemen, these diyer's know it all, I mean they have read a book about it.

Goodbye