flueless gas fires

Discussion in 'Plumbers' Talk' started by starlight tiles, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. starlight tiles

    starlight tiles New Member

    why won't some gas safe engineers fit them.
    what are the pro's and cons of this type of fire,
  2. tomplum

    tomplum New Member

    cos if things go wrong,,and they sometimes do, its the installer in the dock, not the manufacturer,
    besides the fact that if someone dies, it would be very hard to live with that thought,
    thats why i don;t fit um,
  3. liqour and poker

    liqour and poker New Member

    They do provide a solution where there is no flue or chimney.
    However if fitted incorrectly with no air vent or an air vent located too close to the appliance or in a room with inadequate volume they are potential death traps.
    Aswell as this there is also the problem of verifying its safe operation.
    Flue analysers are available to do this but if the appliance is not maintained correctly there is no certainty of its safe operation. There is also the problem of people feeling the need to block the air vents needed for combustion despite being made aware of there importance.
    Although I have fitted these in the past I would advise you to look into alternatives.
    If you like the modern plasma effect, get an electric one
  4. mad.max

    mad.max New Member

    cos if things go wrong,,and they sometimes do, its
    the installer in the dock, not the manufacturer,
    besides the fact that if someone dies, it would be
    very hard to live with that thought,
    thats why i don;t fit um,


    Here we go again. (No offence intended, Mantor) If an installer makes a mistake with ANY product,he is in the shirte. There was a tragic case, where a fitter didn't check the gas rate etc, and a girl died. How many other people have died from flued appliances?

    The appliances are tested WITHOUT a catalytic converter, and pass the tests! The cat is belt a nd braces.

    I don't beleive there are any safety issues, if fitted properly.

    If there is a question, it is to do with the air quality.

    Further details: (although my laptop wont open pdf files, and I can't fix it, so I haven't checked it!



    http://www.burley.co.uk/model_images/press21.pdf

    Ps. Why can't I open PDF's?
  5. mad.max

    mad.max New Member

    Sorry, meant TomPlum
  6. mantor

    mantor New Member

    Could have been meant for me as well though max, I agree with tom. You can bet that when they tested one without the cat that they had it burning as clean as a whistle. Also, these things don't even have their own regulator on, just a needle in a tapered orifice type thing I believe. So if the meter governor gives too much pressure you're back to the situation where it's overgassed. Then you've got to have permanent ventilation, what's the point? If you're gonna do that you're better off with a leccy fire. Especially as most houses have c/heating and only use these things occasionally.
  7. tomplum

    tomplum New Member

    well max we all make mistakes, noones prefic, luckily all mine have never caused injury or worse to others ( touch wood), so i won't go into a situation that might cause harm to others,
    we all know gas combustion gives off harmfull fumes and it makes sence to me to get these fumes out of the building,,,dinosar, yes, i'm an old dog and fluless gas fires are a new trick that i don't want to know,
  8. mad.max

    mad.max New Member

    to know,

    With respect, Tom, that about sums it up. Correct, on some fires, there is no governor, but on most fires now, the gas rate is governed by the injector.

    POC's are mainly water vapour and co2. In the absence of sufficient Oxygen, we obviously get CO - very dangerous. BUT these fires only consume between 2.5KW and 3.5Kw ON HIGH. It is almost impossible to draughtproof a house to below air ingress required for 7Kw, hence the "normal" no vent regs.

    What happens if a flue is blocked? I always remove flue liners through the TOP of a flue. Very often, guys pull it down thro' the room. What happens to the rockwool,fibreglass/cement bags that created the seal in the top annular space? I've seen a few flues blocked due to this!

    I could go on.
  9. mantor

    mantor New Member

    What happens if a flue is blocked? I always remove flue liners through the TOP of a flue. Very often, guys pull it down thro' the room. What happens to the rockwool,fibreglass/cement bags that created the seal in the top annular space? I've seen a few flues blocked due to this!

    Come on max, you know that's why we smoke bomb them and test for spillage after fitting, so irrelevant.
  10. mad.max

    mad.max New Member

    Mantor, the biggest problem hat we face is that we can only test with the conditions prevalent on the day. If, for example, a flue liner has been pulled through the room, it may not immediately significantly restrict the flue. Only if and when it moves, say to the dog leg might it then cause a problem. By which time you may have had several hot dinners! By the way, a smoke test can "pass" on a severely redtricted flue!

    But, really, Mantor, what you point out holds true for a flueless fire. If all the tests have been carried out, then they do not represent a danger - provided that they are maintained.
  11. mantor

    mantor New Member

    Most of them never will be.
  12. rome60

    rome60 New Member

    They are not a new fire they have been in use for many years in the USA.But having said that i prefer not to install them.
  13. starlight tiles

    starlight tiles New Member

    have a look at cvo fires,they claim their's at at the cutting edge on design and technology and their new one's have no cat converter.
    not cheap at 1400 pound but they seem all the go now with all the architects.
  14. londonplumber

    londonplumber New Member

    I would not even consider fitting them; I consider them a danger to my clients. Always advise against them.
  15. imran_

    imran_ New Member

    Can you explain the safety features pls?! As with ANY system, it could be dangerous if not operating correctly. However if it has relevant safety features to mitigate potential problems then it may be OK.

    Pt
  16. mad.max

    mad.max New Member

    I would not even consider fitting them; I consider
    them a danger to my clients. Always advise against
    them.


    London, most guys who wont fit FF's, take this POV simply because it seems to contradict everything that they have ever learnt. Also, when everyone was rammed with work, why investigate something that seems odd?

    Please explain, London and anyone else, though, why you "consider them a danger". But explain it clearly, and factually, remembering how CO is produced, and the ventilation rates required to sufficiently support complete combustion.

    Also, if you feel that test houses are fraudulently approving Flueless fires, then it follows that they may be wrong with every other category of appliance
  17. mantor

    mantor New Member

    Please explain, London and anyone else, though, why you "consider them a danger". But explain it clearly, and factually, remembering how CO is produced, and the ventilation rates required to sufficiently support complete combustion.

    1} Too easy to block off permanent ventilation.

    2) Too many users will not get them regularly maintained.

    3) The oxygen depletion device fitted to these is not a carbon monoxide detector and is too low in the room to be of use in any case.

    4) As previously said the testing done without the cat proves nothing if the appliance tested was burning clean at the time. When it's burning dirty and the cat gets sooted up look what happened. (Cwymbran tragedy for anyone interested)

    5) Proper fires with chimneys have an escape route for any dangerous gases they may produce, Cwymbran showed what can happen with these when the cat stops working.
  18. Captain Leaky

    Captain Leaky New Member

    I always refused to fit them. I have never been happy that they are 100% safe.

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