Bro has an ageing Potterton Kingfisher 2 which has seemingly, at last, really kicked the bucket. I talked him through the re-igniting of the pilot, something I have to do every year... This time, tho', when he turned the boiler back on, the flame was so big it came out the viewing window, and from another place. Anyhoo, I recommended he shut the darned thing down and brace himself for a new boiler. The thing is, he has zero water pressure where he is, 6 floors upski, so a combi is out of the Q. The other issue is that his boiler is located in an airing cupboard (along with the hot cylinder) and this is in the centre of his flat with no access to an outside wall or drain. He ain't going to move the location. He also - rightly - won't entertain ripping up his sanded/polished floorboards in order to run new condensate pipes. Possibly, the condensate could be pumped up through the roof and sent to a drain up there, but that sounds a bit crazy. And costly. Soooo, what discretion do plumbers have to fit a conventional boiler, either system type or vented? Ie - non-condensing? Ta muchly.
Chust found this: http://www.kwikplumb.com/news/View.php?ArticleID=34 DISPENSATION FOR NOT FITTING A CONDENSING BOILER IS AS FOLLOWS It is a scoring system and if your location can score more than 1,000 points you do not HAVE to fit a condensing boiler. Your engineer will provide you with his calculations that you must keep safely in case you sell your house. SCORE. Building type. Flat = 710 Mid terrace = 640 Other = 590 If you need a condensate drain fitted = 100 Longer than 2 metre flue = 200 Move to a different room (not applicable if kitchen) = 350 Boilers must not be fitted within 2.5 meters of a boundary and should avoid areas where cars are parked That sounds pretty promising to me.
Thats way out of date, it was done away with about five years ago or so when they done away with the Grade B boilers. Besides no one makes non condensing boilers any more, you would struggle to get one, let alone any parts for breakdowns etc.
Just to add to this, and only because a gas engineer I know recently asked me about the wiring, there is some type of catch tank that can be fitted to condensing boilers as he recently installed one with the same issue i.e. he had nowhere to run the condensing pipe. It has a built in float that will disconnect the live to the boiler should you not empty it, forcing the issue. It was a first for him despite his years of fitting boilers so I imagine its a new thing.
It only had a float switch to wire in and nothing else, this disconected the boiler if it activated. This was his first time installing one and wanted a my take on the wire (He was allready ok but I'd guess wanted a second mind on it) Perhaps its the answer if you folks absolutely cannot vent off the condensing pipe.
This is a condensate pump, the float switch activates the pump when it reaches a certain level. It will also prevent the boiler operation should the unit fail. They have been around for several years now and are a great tool for situations like DA is describing. Also DA they are not very expensive in the region of £80.00.
Thanks, all. Yeah, I suspect from what you say, Dave, he'll have to bite t'bullet. The old 'points' system would have seen him escape quite comfortably, but alas no longer. So it'll be a vertical flue up through the flat roof and a condensate pump also going up on to the roof before finding a drain. Jeepers. Sadly, roof access is good - it's flat and has stairs going to it... Cheers - I'll pass on the good news
Oh no; it's not out of date. The Guide is still valid and available on the government's website http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_PTL_CONDBOILER.pdf Vokera still make a non-condensing boiler. (Other brands may be available.)
Hi Sam. Still valid? Cool - that's promising then. Funnily enough, a search for 'non-condensing boilers' threw up the Vokera system boiler, so I was aware that some non-conds were available at least. I've told my bro to get some plumbies out for a site visit, and explain the situation. They must have a fair bit of discretion, so it'll be interesting what they say. Thanks.
I would dispute the validity of that as I was discussing with my gas safe inspector just last week during my inspection. He was of the opinion it is now defunct. It does not alter the fact that the existing boiler is an open flue boiler, so all the fluing has to be altered anyway. For the cost of a condense pump and a few quid additional labour why would you put in a boiler that costs more to run
In this situation a condensing boiler is clearly exempt. It seems he has a loft above his flat. I assume the cold water tank is up there. He could remove the cylinder and fit a pump fed from the tank to give high pressure hot and cold water via a combi. The low pressure mains water pipe can be to supply the kitchen tap only. If the cold tank is inside the flat, a negative head pump can be used. If he goes this route he will appreciate the extra room. Vokera do the non-condensing SE combis and system boilers. Biggest is 28kW. The combis are simple and do not even have 3-way valves. If he can't get a pressure relief pipe from the central boiler position to the outside. He can turn the PRV into the CH pipework and tee into the CH pipework at a point near the outside wall using a 2 BAR PRV. Some boiler manufacturers provide kits. The best of the non-condensing boilers and the lower end of condensing boilers - there is not much difference in efficiency. http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/bu...ocuments/partl/bcassociateddocuments9/further I found this 2005 document from the above government site: http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_PTL_CONDBOILER.pdf Page 69 onwards. Look at the flow chart... http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_PTL_DOMHEAT.pdf It clearly states that there are exemptions. The points are: 710 points, because a flat 350 points, if boiler has to be moved to another room 200 points, if the flue within the flat has to be over 2m long 100 points, if a condensate pump is necessary. The minimum total points is the determining factor. If this exceeds 1000 points you meet the exception criteria and can install a non-condensing boiler. So, ignoring the flue and condensate pump, you have already earned' 710+350 = 1060 points as the boiler will have to be installed in a different room. Problem solved; a non-condensing boiler is permissible.
You can dismiss one on financial grounds as well. If it cost more to move the boiler to another room you can exempt a condensing boiler. If you read the regs it is difficult to fit a condensing boiler in some flats. If the plume is considered a nuisance then it is outright exempt.
If you read DA's posts, you'll see his brother lives in a top floor flat and later on in a post, you'll find out that his roof is flat as well. I know of no flat roofed buildings that have a loft Walt.
Well a condensing boiler is out. He is better off updating his H&C water system at the same time and getting into the 21st century, and that may mean either a negative head pump with a cold water tank or a cold water accumulator cylinder. The mains pressure would determine if the accumulator would be feasible. The accumulator does not need a pump.
Hi Walt! Good to see you back, man . But, er, gentle, eh? Tee-hee - all good stuff, gentlemen. It's pretty clear there are circumstances where a condie boiler cannot be justified on financial grounds - it just wouldn't be reasonable to force peeps to fit one when there is silly extra cost. But I'm not sure if my bro's place is one of therm. As JJ says, my bro's flat is the top one - no loft as such, and access to the outside is easy. However, getting rid of the condensate is going to require pumps and sh*. And I know my bro is still in the 19th cent, Walt, but the system boiler - losing the header tank - will be a s far as he'd entertain going, I suspect. It looks as tho' he'll have to get some actual coves out to see the situation, and see what they have to say. What are the chances of them having different opinions?! Pretty high, I suspect. I'll keep you posted.
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