So.....a local plumber has called in to assess the job. He agrees the hot water cylinder is the problem and source of leak. Although I siphoned remaining water in cold tank and fitted a hose to the valve at the bottom of the cylinder, that one refused to turn and the water remaining below the out pipe is what continued to run. You can hear there is still water inside when you tap it. As he came between jobs (without tools) he has shown me where to fit a valve to cut the cold water from it but still supply toilet etc. This will be a temporary fitting until a new gate valve goes in at the same time as the tank. It will be an indirect cylinder and he has scared me to death by telling me the connections are never in the same place as old one. More pipework needed. He cannot come till the end of the week or maybe even next week. I'm going to get a valve and fit it myself until he can come back so I at least have a flushable toilet, not walking around with a bucket of water to carry upstairs. . I'll have a bloody good go and MAY not need to move to the woods after all.
Hi Loz. Blimey. Even if you went for the same type of cylinder, it's unlikely - unless they are exactly the same make and model - that the pipes will line up. In essence, this is a 'normal' plumbing job in that it chust involves screwed in fitting (to which you'd add a smear of jointing compound or PTFE tape) and a few cuts of pipes, repositioning and reconnecting. In essence. I have to say tho', that if you are not familiar with doing this sort of stuff, it isn't the best plumbing job to begin with. Mind you, you've replaced the immersion a couple of times?! That is actually probably the trickiest connection of the lot as they tend to seize up horribly, and then you run the risk of buckling the tank shell, or even tearing it - not kidding. This has got to be your call, Loz. We can guide you from here - but you'll be on your own. If this plumber gives you a reasonable price, I think I'd be inclined to let him do it - the cylinder itself is going to be ~£150, so that might put the labour charge in some perspective. There are probably videos on YouTube on doing this job - have a look and familiarise yourself. Then you can make the decision.
Good advice, a plumber will do it a lot quicker than you will Loz, and if the plumber does not mind, watch him and learn!
Some hate it and some don't mind. Best to be upfront - tell him you are fascinated and would love to watch - would he mind? If you forget the cuppa and the bickies, then not a chance...
The plumber who came was a cheeky chap,, no problem, I can give as good as I get and he mentioned he could not come quickly because of hospital appointments. It turns out he's waiting a triple bypass operation. Human heart plumbing lol. Ideal for me to step in and offer to do what I could. For instance - he waited for me to turn the stoptap on etc instead of crawling under the sink to it. I was originally considering buying a used tank which are maybe £60-70. There is one on ebay at the moment only six months old with receipts etc but wasn't sure. Anyway it seems regardless of how much I help the guy he has still quoted a price for tank fit alone of £380 -400. He said that was dependent on price of copper tanks at the moment. I managed to save the £40 by chucking £2 over a counter and walking away with an isolator valve and did that last night in less than 15mins. Speaks volumes!! Does anyone know if that price is within reason. Currently out of work myself due to illness and missing all the benefits that come with regular work. I do the odd side line job when I can, Jack of all trades with an hgv licence but not been fit for the lifting etc myself. Funds are eaten away by circumstances beyond my control. Anyway I have a flushing toilet. Yayyyy. Could the problem with the new fittings being positioned out of line - be solved with the flexible hose fit instead ? x
I can give a tip on the terrible immersion heater fit in a very cramped space. I tried everything the first time it went and those ridiculous immersion spanners will not sit tight. Instead of unscrewing the spanner twisted out of shape. The final effort that cracked it was to position a bed in front of cupboard, the headboard next to tank and find a length of scaffolding pole. Fit to end of spanner, rest on headboard to keep straight angle and walk with pole. Crack - done :-D
Hi Loz. Ok, you are clearly a resourceful peep, and money is tight. So, yes, you can do this yourself and we will guide you. That isolator - is that on the cold supply to the bottom of the hot cylinder? If so, hopefully it is 'full bore' so that it doesn't impede the water flow by much, so your hot water delivery will be fine when you fit your new cylinder. Ok, a few Qs. How do you heat your hot water at present? Is it just by immersion heater? Is there a boiler of any sort in your house? If so, what kind? By all means buy 2nd hand provided you have a fair idea of its provenance - the one you mentioned which has receipts to prove its age sound good. Obviously make sure it will fit in that cupboard space first! You are going to have to be prepared to make some cuts and connections in the copper pipes, because they will almost certainly need cutting and re-routing even if it's only by an inch! I'd suggest that brass compression fittings will be your best bet as they don't need any particular skill (no blow-torches, for example) and are completely reliable (we'll guide you on their use - adding a smear of Fernox Hawk White Jointing Compound, for example). You main issue will be undoing the existing connections - they will be tight. You should actually be able to re-use most of them provided they have the same thread size and type as the new cylinder. A wee word about your awesome immersion heater removal - you were lucky you didn't mangle the tank! They are made of thin copper (probably thinner these days) and can be distorted surprisingly easy when too much force is used. This is not a problem when doing up the fittings, but can be scary when undoing old ones. The secret to undoing immersions and other such fittings is to use 'percussion'. Ie, if you were to fit a spanner and then start applying a steadily increasing amount of force on it, then it's a lottery as to whether it'll undo or the cylinder buckle. Instead, it is almost always better to fit the spanner, apply a firm bit of undoing force - and then give the spanner some firm clumps with a rubber mallet at the same time. It's that percussive impact that usually 'breaks' the seal. Anyhoo, that isn't an issue for the moment. I cannot comment whether the plumber's quote is reasonable as I don't know. But it's pretty clear you'll save a shed-load if you DIY this. Bearing in mind it is, of course, a bit of a risk... Is there anyone you can call on for help at any point? Not necessarily to do the job, but to lend a helping hand - holding a pipe while you measure it...tightening up a fitting...getting the cylinder into place...etc?
I have torn a cylinder trying to remove immersion heater from it's home. A lot to be said for stainless steel cylinders a lot stronger.
That's a good point. I wasn't aware of ss cylinders. I'll look into that and the difference in price etc. I'd hit that immersion with a lump hammer let alone a rubber mallet. Good job it's an old thick tank me thinks and it would be the impact that started it off. I have managed it a couple of times since and even the new type immersion that was more money still corroded. With the present day quality I'm terrified for next time. The water is heated by immersion alone but is connected to a back boiler in the kitchen, open coal fired. There is a drain valve coming from the back boiler and a pump for the radiators. With coal running at £15 a bag and a pull on the fire equivalent to a hurricane, I don't fire it up. However. .. I still want to retain this option rather than lose the few radiators fitted. At the time my dad was alive and I had a share of his concessionary coal. Unfortunately I have no one viable to help. Only a totally impractical daughter, if it's not sparkly or could damage her nails - heaven forbid - no chance. Although I'd love a crack myself and I honestly believe this guy is expensive looking at the 15 plate van he's driving things like the heat source, back boilers needing drainage etc scares me to death. The property is well over a century old and I don't want to be the one to blow it up. I'll have to give in to wish and pay the guy.
And with a SS cylinder you should use Incoloy immersion heater, NOT copper. http://www.teslauk.com/viewProduct.asp?pid=7743
Are there definitely more benefits with a ss cylinder. Cost/ lifespan/ heat loss etc. I'd imagine less corrosion and tougher stuff though even now most pipework I've ever seen and used has been copper/ brass fittings. Scrap value has to be less for ss. I have to say. ...I'm not a big user o t'internet but you guys have been great. Very helpful and understanding with some great comments, perfectly clear and comprehensive. Thank you all so much, I'm very grateful for your help and response. X
To be honest, I never realised you could get SS cylinders. I bet they ain't cheap... Personally, unless they cost very little more, I wouldn't bother - after all, hardly anyone else does... I'd be tempted to try installing future immersion elements with a good smear of Copper Grease on their thread, and then only a smear of Fernox White on the actual fibre washer (both sides of it). That way it should still be water tight, but should not seize in place at all. Another tip when replacing the element is to loosen it (remember the percussive knock) with the tank still full of water as this helps to keep the tank in shape. Once the element has clearly 'cracked' loose, then drain off until it's below the element opening and undo fully. The way to find out about that plumber's quote is to phone up a couple more - they don't even have to come out to view - and simply ask their all-in price for replacing a hot cylinder. They should be able to say "It'll be £X if there are no issues like access, etc).
I will do that but this plumber butted in and basically said this is the price. I'll be here towards the end of the week. I'll give you a ring to make sure you're home. He lives less than a mile away. The tactic used really gave you no option to say I'll think about it. However, I will ring for quotes and negotiate the price with him by phone. I'm only short of £350 lol so some hard bartering is required. I copper slipped the immersion last time and have a new immersion to fit which was a spare. The immersion that is in now has apparently been updated. I purchased a whole new one as I was told there was no chance of the old style but it was just the central thermostat rod that had broken. Basically it has no safety cut out and the newer therms were too big to fit the housing at the top. I managed to buy an old model from the Internet and just changed the thermostat. As a result I have an entire brand new immersion heater with the safety cut out still boxed. That should come off that damn bill.
You said in post #41 that "it would be an indirect cylinder". Do you mean that the current, leaking, cylinder is an indirect one too, or that the new one will be even if the old is 'direct'? This is important, because I'm guessing - tho' please confirm either way - that your back boiler heats the cylinder by 'gravity' water flow, and not pumped. I hope this isn't the case, so please confirm. (Does your pipework have one of them: The type of system you have will determine the type of hot cylinder you'll need - with as solid fuel back boiler, you run the risk of boiling the water in the boiler and pipes if it's a gravity system that doesn't flow very well, and changing such a system from 'direct' to 'indirect' could well slow down the boiler water flow. On a different note - are you going to be bullied by this plumber? Because that is exactly what he is doing right now. If you don't want to phone up a couple of others and ask for a simple quote over the phone (they should be able to do this, tho' they might be reluctant - fair enough), then that's your call. Bear in mind that 'flexis' are not suitable for connecting up the cylinder - these tend to be more restrictive internally (certainly no good for 'gravity'), prone to deteriorating inside, less tolerant of high water temps (and we are potentially talking 'boiling'), etc. Also, on a gravity system, the pipes must 'flow' the correct way at all points and avoid 'dips'. So if you want to tackle this job yourself, you'll need to be certain you know what you are doing. If you are in genuine hardship, I'd approach the council and ask for assistance. It is only a small bill for them, and the potential alternative is that you could (in theory) become effectively homeless - so that will be a MASSIVE long-term bill for them...
The plumber mentioned not connecting the back boiler at all and choosing a direct cylinder and immersion. Although I cannot run the fire below all the time I do occasionally light that fire to keep the chimney clear. It has a total of four gravity fed radiators, the radiators upstairs do get hot but the single one downstairs barely warm. The water itself boils to such a degree that the house rumbles with the fire lit. Even when you slide the bar cutting the flow to back boiler ( draw plate in fireplace. ) A pump to assist the radiator flow is fitted at the side of the fire on the pipework. This again is pretty inefficient and the addition of radiators - done by a building firm - has never proved very successful. I will photo the pump and pipework downstairs. I just thought it best to replace the split tank with the same as it stands now. The plumber never asked about the system and actually asked if there was any form of central heating whilst standing right in front of the radiator next to the tank cupboard. I have heard nothing from him today and he said he would ring with a day for the job. I'm sure he will when he needs a cash job. I thought the tanks were £150 and he quoted 400 and said he would fit it in an afternoon but needed to pick up a tank first. That's 250 labour for one afternoon. Will take pic of pump thanks.
Well its Sunday night and not a peep from the damned plumber. A week tomorrow since he came and priced the job. Water is still collecting in kitchen. No hot water and sick to death of face wipes. Kettle boiled to death. I have a baby with me most days so this is now beyond a joke. No word tomorrow and I will go elsewhere and start again. Rang two other plumbers, neither would give me a price without coming out and neither were available for two weeks, fully booked with boiler repairs. X
Hi Loz. Yep, that's a pump all right I simply do not understand why you haven't contacted other plumbers. If you hold out for this original guy, then I'll need to question your sanity. As you surmise, this is an easy 'bread-and-butter' job for a plumber. I'm not going to speculate how long it should take or how much they should charge, but it does seem as tho' this guy is going to do very nicely for an easy afternoon's work... I still don't know what type of cylinder you have, direct or indirect. If the former, then you'd certainly be better off going for the latter type as your replacement. HOWEVER, it would need to be suitable for the gravity heating system you have. Really, if you wanted this sorting properly, you should turn it in to a fully-pumped system, so that would need a diverter valve and a cylinder thermostat - I wonder if the guy has priced for this, and that's why he's quoting £400? (Although we both know it isn't why...) Sadly, the since the type of cylinder and system you have is currently unknown to us, I cannot really recommend you attempt this job yourself - at least not unless you carry out some serious research first and are completely certain you are happy it's going to be fine. So, get on the blower tomoz morn and call up at least two other plumbers (ideally with decent Google etc reviews...) and say "I have a leaking hot cylinder - I think it's an old-fashioned 'direct' type. I have shut off the water to it. Can you give me an idea of the replacement cost, please?" This is your call, Loz. I've already suggested what you should do - including getting in touch with the council about your situation (and looking after a baby most days is surely quite an impetus) so, as much as I sympathise, if you just sit there and wait for this idle plumber to turn up, then, well, y'know...
Forums
Facebook
Twitter
You Tube
Instagram
Shop