Help! I was told I could only have electric shower but is that true?

Discussion in 'Plumbers' Talk' started by 18ctgoldlady, Aug 2, 2011.

  1. 18ctgoldlady

    18ctgoldlady New Member

    Hi, I have a Mira electric shower in my ensuite bathroom and I was going to have an electric shower put in the main bathroom for my lodger to use.  I am on the ground floor flat and there is an airing cupboard in the bathroom with like a round drum type boiler.... which i believe is a combi boiler.  I wanted to put a mixer tap type shower but there just isn't the pressure. Was advised to have electric shower but a good friend said I could have a pump shower which would be much better and cheaper to have installed.  He said I needed to get

    A Surrey flange in top of hot water tank to seperate shower
    from other hot water.

    An additional inlet/ballcock into cold water tank because tank is
    small, this will fill it up quicker.

    manual shower valve such as
    http://www.screwfix.com/p/swirl-single-lever-manual-chrome-mixer-shower-valve/63176

    A riser kit http://www.screwfix.com/p/swirl-chrome-shower-kit-with-flexible-shower-head/23224

    Shower pump  http://www.screwfix.com/p/salamander-contract-1-5bar-shower-pump-with-isolators-ct-50/46231

    Does any of that make sense?  I don't want to buy it only to find I should have stuck with the electric shower.  What's best?

    Thanks.
    Maria
     
  2. HOTDOG ø

    HOTDOG ø Active Member

    Well it would help if we knew what you current set-up is! If you have a combi then you will not have a hot water cylinder! I'm afarid until you can post an accurate descirption then no-one will be able to help you. PS Swirl showers are utter rubbish! :)
     
  3. 18ctgoldlady

    18ctgoldlady New Member

    Thanks Hotdog. I live in Enfield and everything in my flat is powered by electric, electric storage heaters, etc. I am thinking someone must be familiar with these type of flats.  It's a Fairview flat... circa 2002.   I have since ascertained I have a hot water cylinder with cold water storage tank on top and the water is heated by immersion.   I hope that makes enough sense for somene to be able to give me some advice on whether I can have a pump shower or an electric one.   I was told by a plumber that cold water tank is too small to have pump shower but then  I had an experienced builder who installs complete bathrooms look at it who suggested it can be done if an additional inlet/ballcock was put into cold water tank as it would fill it up quicker.  I am looking for a second opinion please.
     
  4. G Brown

    G Brown New Member

    You have a combination cylinder. You cannot pump these. The only option is an electric shower.
     
  5. Pink Panther

    Pink Panther Member

    Whilst a pumped shower is generally a 'better' shower, your good friend was wrong to suggest fitting a pump and a mixer would be cheaper than an electric shower. Also, you current system is just not designed for a pumped shower - regardless of whether a second water inlet is fitted (that's a new one to me...).

    How happy are you with your own Mira? What power is it? Electric showers do provide the weakest shower flow, so it's worth fitting the most powerful model you can - Mira themselves do a 10.8kW jobbie, but I've no idea what it's like (tho' Mira are generally good, I believe).
     
  6. plumber_london

    plumber_london New Member

    an airing cupboard in the bathroom with like a round drum type boiler...I live in Enfield and everything in my flat is powered by electric

    I wonder if its a combi boiler ?
     
  7. plumber_london

    plumber_london New Member

    This is a picture of a combi boiler , the white box , ignore the red thing
    [​IMG]
     
  8. plumber_london

    plumber_london New Member

    Is this what you have in the cupboard?
    [​IMG]
     
  9. plumber_london

    plumber_london New Member

    sorry for the big picture
     
  10. sinewave

    sinewave Screwfix Select

    What a ferkin lash up that looks!  :eek:

    Bloody southerners! 
     
  11. 18ctgoldlady

    18ctgoldlady New Member

    Hi plumber_london.  Yes!!!  That's what I have in my cupboard.  Any ideas on what's the most economical but decent shower system I can have?  I have a Mira electric 9kw shower in the ensuite bathroom but it doesn't really deliver much pressure.  I don't really want to go down the road of having another electric shower fitted if I can avoid it as it would mean a lot of fiddly wiring and hiring an electrician as well as a plumber.

    Thanks for your responses.  I know I'm clueless!  That's why I'm here. ;)

    Maria xx
     
  12. Pink Panther

    Pink Panther Member

    Oookaaaay. That AIN'T a 'combi' boiler - it's a conventional hot water storage cylinder. Which means your actual boiler is located somewhere else (kitchen, perhaps?) and there is also a COLD water storage tank somewhere.

    That COLD tank is important as it (a) provides the stored water that'll supply your mixer-type shower, and (b) provide the 'pressure' for that shower - unless you fit a pump.

    For (a), the size of the cold tank is important since it can be run dry if it ain't big enough when using a pumped shower. You say you are on the ground floor? The cold tank will either be up in the attic of the whole block or else inside your own flat. I suspect the latter since you say 'there just ain't the pressure'.

    What is you incoming mains cold pressure like? You check this on your kitchen cold tap as that's usually the only one connected directly to the mains.

    Costs? An instant electric shower will require the shower itself (£180), a supply pipe from the mains (£?) and a hefty leccy cable and control (£?). And fitting. That'll come to, ooh, £400-500+? (A pure guess - I haven't a clue.)

    A pumped shower? Ooh, £200-300 for a reasonable thermostatic mixer, £150+ for a pump, a home-counties flange (£?), a light-duty power supply with RCD and stuff (£?) and fitting (£?). That'll come to, ooh, £700-800+? (A pure guess as I haven't a clue...) BUt, a LOT more imo.

    If I had to suffer a pitiful leccy shower for myself, I know what I'd give my pathetic lodger... Seriously, if you fit a pumped shower, he'll run you out of hot water every day.

    Take all of the above with the required amount of salt; I hope pros on here will confirm or deny it as necessary.

    But, if it's anywhere near accuarte, I would personally, in this situation, just go for the most powerful leccy shower you can get - 10.8kW? It'll likely be better than the one you currently have, tho' perhaps not by much. I would suggest that your current plumbing system is just not designed for a pumped shower - it'll need too much 'tweaking' to try and make it work properly (double-water inlet to the cold tank - pah!), and all you'll need is a 'sporty' lodger who loves his showers to make your energy costs hit t'roof.
     
  13. Captain Leaky

    Captain Leaky New Member

    You say the cold water tank is on top of the cylinder? ( a fortic or combination cylinder) If it is then it cannot be pumped. IF it is a separate cold water tank then it probably can be pumped.
     
  14. 18ctgoldlady

    18ctgoldlady New Member

    Yes it's a fortic cylinder immersion tank with cold water tank on top of the cylinder.  I have been told by a plumber that I could have a negative shower pump fitted.

    From what I understand I could have a problem with the  cold water tank emptying too quickly
    which can be improved by fitting a 22mm cold mains to the tank and a 3/4"  ballcock. Maybe just the ballcock will improve flow into the tank. Is this correct???  Why can't I have a pump shower and would a pump type shower be more economical than having an electric one fitted>
     
  15. G Brown

    G Brown New Member

    You cannot pump a fortic cylinder. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a grade 1 cowboy.
     
  16. Pink Panther

    Pink Panther Member

    Goldlady, your current system is intrinsically unsuitable for supplying a pumped shower. Yes, it's possible that it can be 'made' to work - possibly quite successfully - but it relies on a number of things going 'right'. All the tweaks it'll require are very bodgy - adding a 22mm mains supply and ballcock will help, but it might not make the difference you'd expect; being at mains pressure, the actual 'small' size of the 15mm pipe isn't actaully much of a hindrance to the current water flow, tho' the 15mm valve might be. And, if the fellow proposing this work is saying stuff like "the 22mm pipe and ballcock will double you flow...", then he needs to have a pinch of salt thrown in his eye.

    Basically, it's all a bit of a gamble. It might work. Equally likely is that your lodger will have a 7-minute shower and empty your tank; just wait until you hear the musical noise of your pump drawing air...

    I've explained costs in my earlier post. I don't know the exact figures, but would estimate that the pumped 'solution' would come in at roughly double the electric alternative. And the leccy method will work, tho' of course it isn't a great shower.

    But, fit a 10.8kW babe and it'll get you wet.
     
  17. Pink Panther

    Pink Panther Member

    Here's an idea; if you wish to proceed with the pumped solution, then get a written guarantee from the plumber that it WILL work as described, or else he removes it all and refund yer money.
     
  18. G Brown

    G Brown New Member

    Can cowboys write? :)
     
  19. 18ctgoldlady

    18ctgoldlady New Member

    ok, my cold water tank is separate from the cylinder and sits above it.   The plumber says he can fit a stuart turner negative head pump 1.8 and that it shouldn't be a problem.  I've had another plumber look at it and he said it can be done.  In fact he said that because everything is run on electric and because I have another electric shower in the ensuite shower room that having another electric shower put in the main bathroom might overload the system and I'll need another circuit board (whatever you call it).  So, I'm gonna go with the plumber who is going to fit the pump and fingers crossed he knows what's he doing.  All his work is automatically guaranteed for 2 years and he is going to give me a written estimate and guarantee to go with it.  He's charging me £450 for supply and labour it which seems pretty good to me... since the pump alone is not cheap.  I do know someone who has used him and she has been pleased with his work.

    Thanks for your replies.  I've given myself a bit of a headache but at least I know a thing or too now about pumps,  ball cocks and flanges, but I'm not sure what flange he is going to use (whether it's from Essex of Surrey or wherever) and I'm not going to give myself a further headache worrying about it any more.
     
  20. Pink Panther

    Pink Panther Member

    *Cough*

    So, you don't have a combi and you don't have a fortic cylinder... Apart from that, your posts have been very illuminating. And our 20-odd replies pretty completely ineffectual .

    If you do have a separate cold tank - as you now say - then there's a fair chance it's significantly larger than the teeny thing a Fortic has, so also a fair chance it'll be ok; surely your two plumbers can't be wrong. So every chance all will be ok.

    That strikes me as a very good price. A fair point about the leccy load from 2 leccy showers - both running at the same time will have a huge drain.
     

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