I know what we can talk about now :-)

Or at least read about now.

But you might not want to. 'Cos it makes for bad reading. Really bad...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tobias-stone/history-tells-us-what-will-brexit-trump_b_11179774.html

 

Succinct. And true. Thank you.

I don't think many people realise just how scary and unpredictable this whole populist issue is.

Is that a glimpse of hope over in France - they told f'wit Sarkozy where to go. If Le Pen gets in we are truly on the road to hell. The EU - and the world - is going to be well and truly rodgered with a bargepole.

Get ready to poo yer pants.

Whilst the poorest amongst us starve.


BUT! WAIT! There is a glimmer of hope even on our own fair Isle .

My man is back - and he's going to tell it as it is. Sigh

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...italise-centre-ground-with-political-comeback

 

The trouble with blaming Blair - or anyone else - for immigration is that immigration just ain't what the problem is.

It was the populist excuse used for Brexit and then Trump and now who knows.

Yeah yeah yeah - we've been here before, Phil. Shame on you for peddling that tired old unthinking line.

We had a credit crunch. We went into recession. We have a right wing government who will not finance the NHS or other public services properly, and is currently going to make the poorest amongst us squeak. We have braying far-right populist neo-fascist self-appointed spokespeeps who shout 'US!' and 'MAKE US GREAT AGAIN!' and stabs a finger at anyone who disagrees as being a 'TRAITOR OF THE PEOPLE!'

And it works. It actually works. Let's use the immigrants as an excuse. Simple.

As dishonest as it is unethical.

But, no, this ain't going to descend into another BREXIT! thread - it doesn't have to. 'Cos I don't believe you aren't more and more aware of the damage that's been done to Britain by this incredibly stupid move, and the lumbering way that May is trying to convince everyone it's going well.

I don't believe that you aren't having second thoughts, Phil, that you don't wonder at what on earth is happening as a result; yes, Trump almost certainly tipped over the line to his win because of Brexit.

I don't believe you don't fear the financial damage that's going to hit Britain over the next decade at the very least.

And that you don't have any regret at the hurt & political damage we will cause to our very closest friends and allies - if not the whole world.

I simply do not believe that you don't recognise that we are living through a 1930's Europe again.

Be certain that every time you make a post like the one above, a dozen eyes roll heavenwards on this forum. And one or two go "YES!"

 

If other countries follow suit, it's because Britain caused it.

If Britain causes it, it's because many millions of Brits brayed at everything Farage said.

Us. Britain. What used to be the bastion of freedom and common decency.

Try and anticipate what the history books will say about us in 70 year's time. And contrast that with what today's history books say about us 70 years ago.

The shame the shame the shame.

 

Im no great fan of Blair.

But I do agree immigration isn't the issue. It's the presented issue, and that is what hurts the most to me, the way people are easily led. But I dont want to go down the brexit argument route, its been done to death, nobody will change sides, certainly not in public.

But what this suggests to me is how vacant the real sensible centre ground of politics is. We have a far right and a far left currently, and both have extreme views, leaving most people to jump 1 side or the other. The lib dems have collapsed, and should at a time like this be an effective stabilising solution. So although i am no fan of Blair, it needs somebody, with experience to claim the middle ground and insert sone sense and stability, so for that reason alone, its a very welcome possibilty.

Links to the 30's are falling on deaf ears generally, but its really frightening now on a world wide scale, as was the 30's.

 

Im guessing you mean countries

But what countries didnt feel the recession?

 

Hmm ok.

Im not up to speed on new zealand so its difficult to comment.

But canada and australia were definitely affected. Australia was bouyed a bit by its trading with china noticeably. Canada was bouyed sustantially by its oil industry, but suffered unemployment, interest rate problems etc, too.

If you mean there were no bank bailouts, then thats 1 point, but its not the total picture of recession.

The "economy" is generally used as the yardstick for success or not, and conversely ours is doing probably bettervtyan most. But as always its a distorted picture, and only really relates to a measure against gdp, which means nothing for the working man, but is generally a result of planning and investments.

Our recession hit us hard, mostly because our wealth (debts) is based mostly on houses. Other countries, including those you are thinking of are based on a wider range of products.

That, in no way, is related to immigration. Sorry.

What you are thinking is the effect on the services, caused by the lack of infrastructure, from investment, by a series of governments, not just 1.

The lacck of money in the system is generally because its being absorbed a a few (right wing capitalists mostly) rather than being used for the benefit of the many.

This is another discussion that can continue for months

 

All reasonable points to bring up individually, Phil.

It's chust the leap made to tying the blame to "the amount of people"... "unsustainable"... "burden".

If you can show me one shred of evidence that our country's woes are caused my immigrants - either EU ones or not, either legal or not, then there may be the beginnings of an argument here. But what you will find is that immigration has benefited Britain to an overwhelming degree. And to that you can add that we currently have record high levels of employment - not unemployment.

Yes, there are pockets of problem areas due to immigration, but that's down to our country not resourcing the issue properly. And, in any case, it has nothing to do with this country's financial ills.

But, what a scapegoat they are, eh? The poor poor sods.

A self-important neo-fascist started telling giant porkies about 'breaking point' and 'Turkey's millions', and what we have as a result is going to be hellish.