Is this Flue Routing Possible and Approvable?

Discussion in 'Plumbers' Talk' started by jamesinnewcastle, Sep 12, 2016.

  1. jamesinnewcastle

    jamesinnewcastle New Member

    Hi All

    I'm helping refurbish my girlfriends house, she tells me that some years ago she had the old gas boiler replaced. The plumber was recommended to her and he recommended, and fitted, a Remeha Avanta Plus 35c.

    She thinks it must be about 5 years old and has been working perfectly since being fitted. However when we got a plumber to service it he told us that it did not conform to the Building Regulations as the terminal was too close to an opening window and he has turned it off. He suggested rotating the flue/terminal (?) through 90 degrees and emerging through the adjacent wall. But I've looked at the regulations and while we could do it, I think that it would mean having a 'kink' in the pipework to get it to emerge at > 600mm from the corner of the building and >600mm from what would then be the adjacent window. Please see the attached drawing.

    We don't have the plumbers contact details nor the installation manual (lost over the years) so there is no-one to go back to. Also the windows were changed to double-glazing some years ago too and there may well have been an unopenable window next to the terminal at that time. Whatever should have been done or could have been done is irrelevant at the moment, what we need/want to do is to conform to, and get signed off on, the building regulations.

    I can see some options. 1. Seal the window next to the terminal so that it is not an 'opening' (don't want to do that) 2. Fit a flexible pipe to the boiler or I think that three 90 degrees bends (+some straight bits) could achieve the same function. However I have no idea of the way that this could be done correctly. 3. Move the boiler to the other wall - really don't want to do that as it will be expensive and I think that it will foul the cupboard wall and mean an ugly rebuild of the wall at an angle.

    Can you advise on the viability of option 2 please? It's the one I want to go with, can't see why it would be too much of a problem. I would get a Gas Safe installer to do the work.

    Cheers
    James
     

    Attached Files:

  2. TheMorg

    TheMorg Active Member

    The manual (p17) states 300mm to an openable window (measure from the inner flue pipes closest point the the window opening). From your diagram it looks more than that so there is little problem (unless the plume can/is diverted into the window when open).

    It's also only 300mm from a corner (I take this measurement from the outer edge of flue).

    A plume diverter kit an often get you out of awkward situations also.

    You can't fit a flexible horizontal flue to a gas boiler.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
  3. jamesinnewcastle

    jamesinnewcastle New Member

    Hi TheMorg

    Thanks for your reply.

    Oddly enough I have just printed out the Boiler Installation document from the internet myself and noticed the same, which hopefully means that the installer can turn the flue by 90 degrees and go straight out!

    I got the 600mm dimension from the Government document (Doc J) which gives 600mm to an opening and 600mm to a corner (for my Boiler power) - just had another look at Doc J though and from what you are saying I assume that I have a 'fanned draught' boiler and not a 'natural draught' one, is that right? Not easy to find what sort I have from the documentation but if the manufacturers are stating 300mm then I must have. I'll have another read.

    Cheers
    James
     
  4. CraigMcK

    CraigMcK Screwfix Select

    It's a fan flu, Item 3001 on the drawing at the back of the manual
     
  5. jamesinnewcastle

    jamesinnewcastle New Member

    Oh also,

    I take it that the measurement is taken from the outer edge of the circular flue pipe (that is the opening along which the fumes are channeled) and not the edge of the plastic 'surround' that is part of the terminal waterproofing structure? On all the drawings the teminals are shown as squares which I think is misleading.

    Cheers
    James
     
  6. jamesinnewcastle

    jamesinnewcastle New Member

    Thanks Craig,

    Got it.

    Let's hope that the fan doesn't fail! Does the Boiler monitor the fan I wonder.

    Cheers
    James
     
  7. CraigMcK

    CraigMcK Screwfix Select

    The boiler won't fire without the fan running, when it starts up you will hear the fan run for a few seconds, that actuates a vacuum switch which then lets the gas valve open. No fan, no gas, no fumes :)

    I'm not registered to give an gas safe comment, but personally I would say it's within the guidelines of Doc J. The dimensions are greater than "C" and "H" I would go from the outer edge of the flue pipe, not the sealing solution. The pipe vents out through the inner pipe and in from the outer pipe.
     
  8. jamesinnewcastle

    jamesinnewcastle New Member

    Thanks Craig

    That's reassuring!

    I'm not sure if you meant the existing or suggested position of the terminal but now I'm thinking that the current installation might actually be within the 'rules'. I need to measure the distance from the edge of the pipe to the adjacent wall again, this time more accurately and from the right positions.

    In general though (and in no way directed to Craig or anyone else) if the dimension proves to be more than 300mm I am stuck in a loop that I found myself in previously when I found that I needed to get the installation registered.

    I have tried to find out if it had been registered originally, but exactly who has this mysterious register is in itself a mystery, my current plumber says that he registers his with the supplier of the boiler - so he doesn't actually know, and that indirect registration seems a bit odd. I've looked on line for any sort of indication of a register on my local Council site - but no joy. I've not dug too deeply though, but if it is more than 300mm I will dig deeper.

    Even if I can demonstrate compliance it seems that Gas Safe Engineers are likely to avoid any request to check out and certify the installation, the technical guy at Gas Safe was most keen on avoiding doing it! Quite what the problem is I don't know - is it because any subsequent deaths or explosions will be blamed on them? Is it because anyone found saying it is OK when it isn't will be struck off the GS register? I can't see how either can be the case - like the MOT inspector, once the car leaves the garage it no longer has his approval - if the plumber checks there are no leaks, the boiler is OK and the pipe work isn't taped together then it's OK surely at that point in time? It was only the boiler that was changed so he can't even be responsible for any connecting pipework? I suspect he would not be approving the pipe work from the meter to the street either. What if there is an explosion three years later - is he still to blame?

    Don't get me wrong, I do understand people shying away from the issue but what it means is that I may have an unsafe installation that no-one is prepared to look at and give an opinion that would make it safe!! So this means that all the effort put in to keep gas safety has essentially failed.

    I had considered reporting a gas leak, in 30 mins a qualified gas engineer would be all over the house checking for leaks and not leaving until all was considered safe - hey, a free service in 30 mins day or night, cool.

    Sorry, just venting a little, and I was more than 300 mm from any opening!

    Cheers
    James
     
  9. TheMorg

    TheMorg Active Member

    Gas safe will be more than happy to come out and inspect your system if you have a complaint. They will also be able to tell you instantly if it has been notified.

    I wouldn't be too worried about it being notified, I bet less than half of installs ever are. You should be able to find an installer willing to notify it after certain checks have been made, but expect to pay big money for this.
     
  10. jamesinnewcastle

    jamesinnewcastle New Member

    Hi TheMorg

    This reply is not directed at you but at the issues you raise which I can see may well be valid.

    I'm not sure if I can complain in the correct sense of the word, as that would involve knowing who the subject of the compliant would be, and that is part of the problem, we don't. This guy could have died, moved away, changed jobs, etc. I did talk to Gas Safe and while I can't remember the whole of the conversation they weren't offering to check the registration for me or I would have jumped at the chance as that might have removed my problem with a phone call and a re-issue charge, also it would have been the simplest path to take for them in advising me. But with the knowledge I am gathering I will soon be making a more informed call to them.

    As the situation we are in seems to be fairly common I would be annoyed if I were taken for a ride financially as it would look to me like a fiddle supported by Gas Safe's procedures since this known and predictable situation has no planned solution in those procedures. My Girlfriend, and I'm sure many millions of others around the country, had no idea about what was happening or what would be important in 5ish years time when she had the boiler changed, and it is unreasonable to generate a situation where people can't do the right thing at a reasonable cost once they find out what is going on. (I'd expect to be charged for call out and work etc. of course) I'm sure my Mum would be looking at me blank if I were even to attempt to explain the situation to her, we are just the general public and need to rely on the experts and on procedures that work.

    The technical guy at Gas Safe said that he would rip the house apart to check every inch of the installation (in my case that would be very easy as I'm renovating so I could easily expose the 5m of Gas Pipe from meter to boiler). But that is not a fair consideration as the man who just changed the boiler would not have done that, he would just have checked his own work - which is just in the cupboard - and issued the certificate. (OK he may have had a 'Sniff' around for general leaks). So it would be unfair to do more than the original installer would have done and try to charge ££££ for it. In any event the Boiler has been working for years with no leaks or issues so I can claim that I have empirical evidence that the installation is OK and in the face of that fact, a rip-down would again be unfair and unwarranted. Equally, the guy who serviced the boiler last week was happy that there were no leaks and all was tickkity-boo.

    Incidentally, my girlfriend does have a gas-trained nose as she had to call the emergency number a couple of years ago when it turned out that there was a leak in the pipe leading into the house (just under the pavement). OK she isn't a calibrated instrument but it highlights the absurdity of the situation where there is no standard way of getting someone to come and look at the installation.

    I also note that people who are trying to sell their houses without certification can simply pay £30 for some 'insurance' and the deal goes ahead - how mad is that? How does that ensure Gas Safety?

    I will be persuing this issue with Gas Safe and other authorities if there turns out to be a logical gridlock with a rip-off solution. Also I think that all the others in my situation need a good informed guide to the issues that is clear and that they can understand. I may not be a Gas Engineer but I have been a professional Electronics Engineer for 45 years and I would hope that I can learn, question and challenge in a way that will shake this tree till the rotten fruit drops off.

    Cheers
    James
     
  11. CraigMcK

    CraigMcK Screwfix Select

    Perhaps the best way is to get the exact size the last guy measured and argue your case with him if it is not measured correctly or is in line with Doc J sizes. Print off the pages and have them there
    If nothing else I would expect gas safe themselves to give a definitive answer based on those facts
     
  12. jamesinnewcastle

    jamesinnewcastle New Member

    Hi Craig

    The man who came round didn't measure the distance, the window in question is a big modern double glazed affair and opens wide enough to climb out of, so I don't blame him for making a judgement call especially as the distance is going to be very close to 300mm. I won't get back to the house utill tomorrow night but I'll measure the distance accurately and go from there.

    Without going on this forum I wouldn't have been able to progress this far, so thanks all for your input.


    Cheers
    James
     
  13. kiaora

    kiaora Guest

    Hi
    The manufacturers installation instructions override regulations,
    The flue must be installed to their specifications

    Hope this helps

    Regards
    Peter
     
  14. Hi James.

    Page 17 on this shows the acceptable flue terminal positions: http://www.plumbcenter.co.uk/wcssto...ng.all/ti/on/Avanta_Plus_C&S_Installation.pdf

    From your nifty sketch, the terminal would appear to be an adequate distance from the corner (min 300mmm) but I can imagine that the end tip of the exhaust outlet is closer than 300mm to that window. I also cannot see anything in the instructions above which covers an terminal 'pointing' at right angles towards an opening window - they all show flues coming out adjacent to windows, on the same wall.

    So I guess the exhaust and 'plume' from that flue is being aimed right across that window, so perhaps that GasSafe wasn't simply being a jobsworth.

    Solutions? The easiest is as The Morg says (hellish name for a GasSafe...:rolleyes:) - fit a plume kit to divert the centre exhaust flue upwards. The Remeha uses a 'standard' 60/100mm concentric flue, so I'd hope that standard plume kits would fit, but what I'd suggest you do is contact Remeha themselves and ask if they do one for this model.

    This is a typical plume kit: https://www.mrcentralheating.co.uk/...gclid=CIaUxNXqi88CFQoz0wod2XwIkg#.V9esYq1c6ec

    As for the other solution - taking the flue out around that other wall as you've shown in your diagram - can I ask why there's a crank needed? The instructions suggest that a flue outlet can be as close as 300mm to an external or internal corner - wouldn't that be the case if the new flue direction was 'straight' out from the side of the boiler?

    A plume kit would certainly be the cheapest and quickest option, and save having to drill - and fill - holes in your wall.

    (Although the guy was perhaps not a pedant, I suspect that some other GasSafes would have made a 'judgement call' on this flue position, sucked through their teeth for a minute and said "I'm sure it'll be fine as it is...")
     
  15. SC96

    SC96 Member

    Get a plume kit or remove the handle on the window.. Everyone's opinions vary on what's right and what's not
     
  16. jamesinnewcastle

    jamesinnewcastle New Member

    Hi All

    Thanks for the responses - I've just measured the distance from the edge of the tube carrying the waste gases and the wall alongside it and its 350 cm so the installation complies! The distance from the edge of the tube to the window adjacent to it is 400mm.

    Kiaora - I suspect that the Government J document rules will override the manufacturers, but actually they both agree. As was pointed out earlier to me the boiler has fan assistance and that means that the distances in the appropriate column apply, and they are the same as the Governments. I note that the drawings in the installation instructions are exactly the same as in the J document. I wish that I had found the boilers installation document before the J one!

    Devils Advocate - The kink was because I was initially reading the wrong column in the J document and trying to get 600mm to the corner - after comment on the forum I found out that, as you say, 300mm is OK. I could just turn the flue but that is going to be expensive and mean disruption.

    SC96 - I could seal up the window, but that's not going to make it nice in there as it is a very small bedroom. I am leaning towards a plume kit though as it means that I can push the waste away from the window, which makes me feel better about the whole thing and hopefully make a Gas Safe person feel better about registering the Boiler.

    First though I'm going to contact Gas Safe with a number of specific questions at the ready - I'll put them up here along with the answers as it may help dispell erroneous/disperate ideas about the whole issue.

    I'll approach Gas Safe tradesmen who are installers and see what responses I get from each, that will be interesting, the guy who came round stated that he was mainly doing 'repair' jobs so I guess I need someone more on the installation side. I suspect he wasn't too experienced in installations so erred on the 'safe' side, to his credit I think.

    One thing I do remember from talking to Gas Safe was their statement that any Gas Safe engineer could approve an installation, it didn't have to be the original installer. I'll ask that question again.

    Cheers
    James
     
  17. TheMorg

    TheMorg Active Member

    There may still be the issue of nuisance/dangerous pluming. If it goes into the window when opened then it doesn't matter how far away the flue is, it's a problem.

    Couple of other points:
    -Manufacturer's instructions always override any others.
    -I don't believe screwing a window shut/removing the handle turns that into an unopenable window. An unsuspecting person can easily reinstate it.
    -No gas safe person is going to notify the boiler just by a visual inspection, we are forbidden to certify a boiler we haven't fitted ourselves (the idea is to try and stop people fitting the boiler then getting a gas man to sign it off).
     
  18. SC96

    SC96 Member

    Removing the handle would make it an alright situation that's just the same as saying sealing up a air brick isn't right because someone could remove the sealant.. In my opinion and as regards signing their name to it he means a service engineer which is allowed
     
  19. TheMorg

    TheMorg Active Member

    http://www.westbriton.co.uk/gas-pai...hotel-room/story-11451056-detail/story.html#1

    I certainly wouldn't want to risk it, they were found guilty of breaching Gas Safe regulations (I would assume the flue to close to a window).
     
  20. SC96

    SC96 Member

    Fair enough, the chances of the window being replaced and someone adjusting the air/gas ratio so poorly that the co ppm is deadly is very slim
     

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