Is This Legal

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Dunaldo, Oct 20, 2016.

  1. Dunaldo

    Dunaldo New Member

    Hi, I have just had an electrician? do some work for me, but there are a few aspects i am very unsure off, and i would like some help. I have had some new down lights put in in my kitchen, which is on the middle floor of a three storey town house. He cut the plasterboard in the ceiling away from the joist to run the cable under the joist. Legal? And secondly i had a connection box(a unit which the fridge cable was threaded into and connected, instead of a plug type thing) for my fridge and another for my freezer. He has moved the one for my fridge as i asked and turned the other into a switch(both of these boxes are connected to separate switches with fuse). But the spaces where the old boxes were is where he has joined the wires together and crimped and sealed them, and told me to plaster them over. Again, is this legal.
     
  2. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    If they crimped they should be fine, as for down lights he should of drilled through joist wasn't it possible to lift floor above ?
     
  3. Dunaldo

    Dunaldo New Member

    Not possible to lift floor, but i told him if he needed to cut hole in ceiling to get to the joists then that was ok, as i would get a plaster to sort it. But he just ran them under.
     
  4. seneca

    seneca Screwfix Select

    That's what should have been done.
     
  5. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    Not good running under, should of cut holes large enough to be able to drill through can easily put cut plasterboard back in place sounds rough to me
     
  6. Dunaldo

    Dunaldo New Member

    Thanks for the replies. I'll either get him back to go through the joists or I will get somebody else in. As for the crimping that is ok?
     
  7. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    Am not keen on crimping would do it if no other option but yeah it OK, connector blocks big no no if plastering over
     
  8. longboat

    longboat Screwfix Select

    Is it legal, or compliant with BS7671?
    Yes.
     
  9. fire

    fire Well-Known Member

    Building regs and BS7671 allow for cables to be either routed through holes or notches. If you route in a notch it is best to use a recessed metal plate over the notch to protect cable if someone tries to screw in a ceiling hanging utensil or something. This is detailed more in Part P Building regs rather than the wiring regs.
    The size of holes or notches are critical as is the distance between the holes and notches cut out as it can weaken the joist.

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    Not quite as simple as drilling a hole or cutting a notch out in today's day. To be able to drill a hole between joists you may need a angle drill to be able to do it. The electrician may not have one of these tools in his possession so there is still no excuse for not using the notched route.
     
  10. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    Nothing wrong in making hole large enough to accommodate drill like I said plasterboard can go back
     
  11. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    Haha, had to laugh at that picture with the plates over the pipes. Never seen that done in 13+ years of lifting floorboards. Must be out of some idealistic theoretical book. And the picture below that showing cables going through notches in the top of the joist is very poor practice, although allowed.
     
    Working On It likes this.
  12. fire

    fire Well-Known Member

    No doubt each sparky has his/her way of doing things and an opinion on each and every method :p
     
  13. chippie244

    chippie244 Super Member

    A modern screw with an impact driver will go through one of those protection plates without noticing .
     
  14. Lectrician

    Lectrician Screwfix Select

    It won't. The screw would deform. They are 3mm steel. A nail gun such as a Hilti (not Pasload) would.

    Despite UP not having seen these, all wholesalers here sell them, and they are used on retrofit jobs regularly. If you lift a floor in a cottage that has notches already in place, and the joists are spindly 3", you would never entertain drilling a hole near the notch and weakening further. You would use the notch and plate it.
     
  15. slippyr4

    slippyr4 Member

    That's not right in that photo- holes should be on the centreline. Makes quite a lot of differ very structurally because there's no shear force in the centre.
     
  16. I suspect the OP's sparky simply ran the cable in the plasterboard depth and then filled over it - ie he didn't actually notch in to the joist at all.

    Clearly not best practice - but can anyone definitively answer Dunaldo's Q - is it 'legal'?
     
  17. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    BS7671 is specific on cables under a floor or above a ceiling. Look up the section on IMPACT (522.6)
    There's quite a bit of it, but much the same as cables in walls:
    A choice of one of these:

    At least 50mm from top or bottom of joist
    Run in EARTHED conduit/trunking complying with lots of BS numbers
    Cable constructed with earthed metallic covering (eg SWA)
    be mechanically protected against damage..........by nails, screws and the like
    form part of a SELV or PELV circuit

    So, what the OP's electrician has done does not meet these requirements. Legal? Well BS7671 is not a statutory instrument. P1 is statutory , but it only says that electrical work must be done in a safe way, it does not even mention BS7671 (unlike the Approved Document for Part P). Stay awake at the back!

    In the REGs there are no "safe zones" defined for wiring in the ceiling. I have often wondered if a straight cable run between two downlights in a ceiling might be considered to be in a safe zone (as it would be if the cable were run in a wall).
     
    Deleted member 33931 likes this.
  18. ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz - snort. Thank you :)
     
  19. spinlondon

    spinlondon Screwfix Select

    They are just showing where plates would be required.
    The same rules apply to holes in joists or battens as for cables concealed in walls, except for permitted routes and RCD protection.
    So if a hole is less than 50mm from the surface of either a floor or ceiling, mechanical protection is one of the options.
    Other options are to use a cable with an earthed metallic sheath, earthed conduit or earthed trunking.
     
  20. nigel willson

    nigel willson Screwfix Select

    Notches, are only allowed in the top, not the bottom of a joist!
     

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