LABC and new extension

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by armed electrics, Dec 11, 2008.

  1. armed electrics

    armed electrics New Member

    hey guys just completed an extension and handed in electrical certification, what is the procedure im qualified but not registered will be hopefully with elecsa in january just wondering what do LABC do how do they sign it off what do they look out for
  2. Kwichy

    Kwichy New Member

    I've had a couple of different approaches from the Building
    inspectors.

    Some just take a note of my registration number and thats it !!
    Some take a copy of the cert for file and return it to the
    owner.

    Not sure how they'll approach yours, a completed green sheet
    maybe ok
    but dont be suprised if he wants a registration number.
  3. armed electrics

    armed electrics New Member

    what do you mean registration number i havent got one and whats a green sheet
  4. Kwichy

    Kwichy New Member

    Green sheet is just a Installation sheet that can be used by
    any person
    Registered people normally have coloured sheets, but this isn't
    a 'legal' requirement, you can use model forms from the BS7671.
    Personally i prefer the printed or book certs, but anyway.

    Registration number, its a number NIC,Elecsa,Napit etc will
    give
    you when they put you on their registers.
  5. armed electrics

    armed electrics New Member

    but im not registered yet and handed in a certificate to the builder that im subbing for he handed it to labc, so how will it be handled
  6. armed electrics

    armed electrics New Member

    labc know that im not registered they checked first fix
  7. multimick

    multimick New Member

  8. betty swollocks

    betty swollocks New Member

    in my experience labc couldnt care less, my impression is, they have your cert with your name and address on so if anyone dies they'l know who to point the finger at, end of story
    most certs may as well be written in polish, no inspector i've met cares to even glance at them
  9. mr sillys

    mr sillys New Member

    do you use black or brown polish must give a nice effect and smell nice

    cheers
  10. armed electrics

    armed electrics New Member

    betty you alive need to speak to you did what you told me to do about the light problemsyou know the theory you emailed wiill labc get sniff of it remember im not registered yet i did exactly what you said
  11. sinewave

    sinewave Screwfix Select

    DIY Electrical work and the law!

    On January 1st 2005 legislation came into effect which brought electrical work in dwellings under the Building Regulations, and made it a controlled service. This amendment to the Building Regulations, known as "Part P", imposes safety requirements, and also classifies electrical installation work into two basic categories, notifiable and non-notifiable.

    Essentially the distinction is between major work, or work in what are deemed high-risk areas such as kitchens, bathrooms and gardens, and minor work such as replacing switches or adding sockets to existing circuits. (NB to those with a knowledge of the IEE Wiring Regulations, the term "minor work" is used here in its generic sense rather than the meaning defined in the Wiring Regs.)

    A very important and fundamental point to note is that DIY electrical work has not been outlawed. It has been brought within the remit of the Building Regulations and cannot be carried out as freely as it was before, and in many cases cannot be carried out without involving your local council, but you may still DIY.

    Major work is classed as notifiable, i.e. it must be notified to your Local Authority's Building Control department (LABC). How this happens depends on who does it.

    If the work is carried out by an electrician who is registered with one of the organisations who administer self-certification schemes, (sometimes referred to as "Competent Person" schemes) they carry out the work and report the details to their scheme organiser, who then notify the appropriate LABC that the work has taken place, and that it has been certified by the person who carried it out as being in compliance with the Building Regulations. You may be familiar with this method of operation if you have ever had windows replaced by a FENSA member.

    If the work is carried out by someone who is not registered with one of the schemes, be they an electrician or another type of tradesman (e.g. kitchen fitter) who has chosen not to register, or a DIYer, then it must be notified to LABC in advance in the same way that any building work which requires their involvement is notified in advance. And just like when you are building an extension, or converting a loft, etc, there is a fee payable to LABC to cover their activities related to checking compliance with the Building Regulations. (But see "LABC Issues" below regarding this).

    Another important point to note is that apart from a Building Inspector, nobody can certify someone else's work as being compliant with the Building Regulations. Unless arranged by or in cooperation with LABC, a 3rd party electrical inspection is of no value in terms of complying with the law.

    The full text of the legislation can be found here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2004/20043210.htm amended by the 2006 SI here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20060652.htm . It is worth making the effort to read and understand them, because there is a lot of misinformation on the Internet, some of it put out by organisations with a vested interest in pretending that DIY work is illegal, some of it by LABCs who have either misunderstood the legislation, or who are also attempting to mislead the public in order to reduce the amount of work notified to them by non-self-certifying people, some of it, surprisingly, by the ODPM themselves (The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister were responsible for the legislation), and much of it on electrical advice and discussion fora like this one.

    At the time of writing (April 2006), the following work was classed as not needing notification to LABC:

    Code:
    1. Work consisting of -

    (a) replacing any fixed electrical equipment which does
    not include the provision of—

    any new fixed cabling; or

    (ii) a consumer unit;

    (b) replacing a damaged cable for a single circuit only;

    (c) re-fixing or replacing enclosures of existing
    installation components, where the circuit
    protective measures are unaffected;

    (d) providing mechanical protection to an existing
    fixed installation, where the circuit protective
    measures and current carrying capacity of
    conductors are unaffected by the increased thermal
    insulation.

    (e) installing or upgrading main or supplementary
    equipotential bonding;

    (f) in heating or cooling systems -


    replacing control devices that utilise existing fixed
    control wiring or pneumatic pipes;

    (ii) replacing a distribution system output device;

    (iii) providing a valve or a pump;

    (iv) providing a damper or a fan;


    (g) in hot water service systems, providing a valve or a pump;

    (h) replacing an external door (where the door together
    with its frame has not more than 50% of its internal
    face area glazed);

    in existing buildings other than dwellings, providing
    fixed internal lighting where no more than 100m² of
    the floor area of the building is to be served by the
    lighting.


    2. Work which -

    (a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location,

    (b) does not involve work on a special installation, and

    (c) consists of -


    adding light fittings and switches to an
    existing circuit or

    (ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an
    existing ring or radial circuit.


    3. Work on -

    (a) telephone wiring or extra-low voltage wiring for the
    purposes of communications, information technology,
    signalling, control and similar purposes, where the
    wiring is not in a special location;

    (b) equipment associated with the wiring referred to in
    sub-paragraph (a).

    (c) pre-fabricated equipment sets and associated flexible
    leads with integral plug and socket connections.


    4. For the purposes of this Schedule -

    "kitchen" means a room or part of a room which contains a
    sink and food preparation facilities;

    "special installation" means an electric floor or ceiling
    heating system, an outdoor lighting or electric power
    installation, an electricity generator, or an extra-low
    voltage lighting system which is not a pre-assembled
    lighting set bearing the CE marking referred to in
    regulation 9 of the Electrical Equipment (Safety)
    Regulations 1994; and

    "special location" means a location within the limits of
    the relevant zones specified for a bath, a shower, a
    swimming or paddling pool or a hot air sauna in the
    Wiring Regulations, sixteenth edition, published by the
    Institution of Electrical Engineers and the British
    Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2001 and incorporating
    amendments 1 and 2.


    Like any law, things can change, and you are urged to ensure that you make yourself familiar with the law as it stands now, not necessarily as it was when this document was written.

    The starting point on the ODPM website for information related to Building Regulations is http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1130474 and a list of the relevant legislation can be found at http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1130483 .

    It is in the nature of the Internet for sites to change, and it may well be that today, when you are reading this, the links above no longer work, and you will have to search for the pages you want.


    Useful Information

    On the ODPM website there are a number of "Approved Documents"
    ( http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1130478 ). These are not definitions of the law, nor do they tell you what you must, or must not, do. Instead they give guidance on ways in which the law can be satisfied. They do point out that you are not obliged to adopt any solution contained in them if you prefer to meet the requirements in another way, but that said they are useful as they contain common sense advice and often there is no good reason not to adopt the solutions they contain.

    Approved Document P can be found here: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/pub/323/ApprovedDocumentPElectricalsafetydwellings2006editionid1164323.pdf.


    Technical Requirements

    The technical requirements laid down by Part P are remarkably simple. They are:

    P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.

    It is worth noting however that they apply to all work, not just notifiable work, no matter who does it. So a DIYer adding a socket or a fused spur to a ring final circuit must work to the same technical standards as a registered electrician doing a complete rewire.

    The biggest practical issue that arises is testing. To carry out testing of electrical circuits requires expertise and equipment, neither of which are likely to possessed by the average DIYer. So although Part P allows a DIYer to replace an entire circuit cable if it is damaged, without notification, it is arguable that he could not be sure that he had done it properly unless he carried out a series of tests on it, something he would probably be unable to do.


    The IEE Wiring Regulations, aka BS 7671

    Surprisingly, perhaps, Part P does not alter the status of the Wiring Regulations. They are still non-statutory, and there is still no legal requirement to adhere to them in domestic installations. This is a source of great discomfort to many electricians, and some of them will jump through hoops to try and prove that they are mandatory, but the fact remains that they are not.

    HOWEVER, adherence to them is a very good way of ensuring that you meet the technical requirements of Part P, and you would need a very good reason, and a very good understanding of what you were doing, to decide to not adhere to them.


    LABC Issues

    As mentioned above, some LABCs are spreading misinformation, either by accident or design, about the status and acceptability of electrical work done by DIYers or other non-registered people.

    These include:

    1) Stating that such persons simply cannot carry out notifiable work, and that it must be done by registered electricians. The legislation referenced above, Statutory Instrument 2004 No. 3210 The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004 makes it quite clear that this is not the case. LABCs are not allowed to refuse to process Building Notices submitted by non-registered people.


    2) Stating that work carried out by a non-registered person must be inspected and tested by someone who is registered, or who they regard as qualified. Again, there is no mention of this requirement in the statutory instrument.

    Recently the ODPM issued a circular to local authorities making it absolutely clear that they are not allowed to do this:

    http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1131042

    Additionally, the new Approved Document P now explicitly says

    1.26 The building control body may choose to
    carry out the inspection and testing itself, or to
    contract out some or all of the work to a specialist
    body which will then carry out the work on its
    behalf. Building control bodies will carry out the
    necessary inspection and testing at their
    expense, not at the householders' expense.

    Unfortunately, many LABCs have been simply ignoring what the ODPM say, and persisting with their policy of requiring DIYers or other non-registered people to hire someone to inspect and test the work. The ODPM's position on this appears to be that if you are being told this by your LABC you should take them to court.

    It will be interesting to see if LABCs change their behaviour given what the Approved Document now says…


    3) Attempting to impose extra charges to cover the inspection and testing of work done by a non-registered person. An LABC may well elect to subcontract inspection and testing if they do not have the capacity to do it themselves, but they are not allowed to charge extra because of this – the cost to them of subcontracting must be borne by them

    Individual local authorities co-ordinate their services regionally and nationally (and provide a range of national approval schemes) via LABC Services. ( http://www.labc-services.co.uk ).

    I recently posed LABC services the following question:

    "My local Building Control dept has told me that because of staffing problems they are unable to inspect some building work, and will have to sub-contract it, and that I will therefore have to pay this cost on top of their fees.

    Are they allowed to do this?"

    Their reply was:

    "Building Regulation fees are set to a scale that embraces the whole scope of what may be necessary in respect of checking and approving the plans and inspecting the work. The input necessary can vary according to the circumstances of a specific scheme, but the fees are not variable due to this feature.

    The local authority has a legal duty to carry out the Building Regulation function to a proper degree. This can also vary in extent according to the demands of any scheme and considerable discretion rests with the authority. However they are responsible to give a proper service within the fee and cannot charge extra for the reason you mention. Indeed if they failed to inspect yet still charged you might have a case for a refund."



    Alright my Son? ;)
  12. cliffy brown

    cliffy brown New Member

    thanks for that doll, copied and pasted for when i want to show off in the future
  13. dumbass

    dumbass New Member

    Howdo

    If they have already sent someone round to look at first fix likelyhood is they send someone round to look at second fix and test(or verify your testing)
    Not many bc's do this anymore cos it cost to much to send electricians.I used to work for a company that did sub inspecting of non-registered persons work.I think it depends on whether it is charged for in bc's fees or not.

    I worked in my local bc office putting in some air circ fans. They said they were happy if someone could prove quals,they wanted regs and I&T.

    dUMb'
  14. sinewave

    sinewave Screwfix Select

    Capital 'I' actually Clitty, there's a good lad!
  15. Kwichy

    Kwichy New Member

    Ok, But Sine didn't paste that, he actually typed it all out.
  16. lightning bolt

    lightning bolt New Member

    do they sign it off what do they look out for

    i had the same prob a couple of years ago,they would not except the cert look was on my side for me my assessment was 4 week later so i just waited and signed the job of when i was registered
  17. armed electrics

    armed electrics New Member

    yes lightning but if theyre not happy with the electrics which they should be the f*king whole building could not get signed off is that correct or someone know better
  18. sinewave

    sinewave Screwfix Select

    Putting it simply armed it goes as follows.


    If you are competent and can prove this to LABC by showing them 2381/2391 etc then they can not refuse you.


    All you need to do is notify em before starting.


    Notify them at first fix so they, or their 'representative' can inspect if they so wish.


    Notify them again on competition of second fix and send them a copy of a valid IEC with the original going to the house owner.


    Most LABC's will not be interested at all if they are happy with yer Quals.


    Either way if the job is being done under a Building control notice then they legally cannot charge any more for any inspections they may deem necessary.
  19. lightning bolt

    lightning bolt New Member

    more for any inspections they may deem necessary.

    i agree with you sine but in doncaster they would not accept the certs(2381-2391)
  20. armed electrics

    armed electrics New Member

    thats what i done sine i handed them a copy of my part p qual certificate and a copy of 2382 (17th edition) and nvq3 e.t.c with the EIC hope fully the * shall accept that shouldn't they ( wheres betty?)

    [Edited by: admin]

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