Neigbour Building Flue Across Boundary

Discussion in 'Plumbers' Talk' started by Xenaphobia, Jul 6, 2015.

  1. Xenaphobia

    Xenaphobia New Member

    My neighbour has badly positioned a new condenser boiler and the only way the contractor claims that it can vent is by coming through an external wall (which is the boundary) - siting the air intake on the wall overhanging my property and running the flue up the wall and onto his pitched roof where he will plume across his roof vertically (Plan A was to plume across my Patio, Plan B was to plume diagonally across his roof with the terminal much closer than 30cm from the boundary - both proposed by a Gas Safe installer).

    I am not keen on the trespass or the restrictions placed upon my property that this entails.

    Neighbour is claiming it complies with Gas Safe regulations and Building Control have approved it. I rang Gas Safe Technical line and they said that no flue part, particularly air intake/terminal should be sited over a boundary - building control said the same - surely they can't both be correct?

    The worry is the negative impact that will be placed on my house when selling.
     
  2. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    Doesn't sound right that its on your side of said wall.
    If your in England they no such thing as trespass.
     
  3. Xenaphobia

    Xenaphobia New Member

    The law of trespass in relation to land is designed to protect an individual from unlawful interference by somebody else with his land.

    Trespassing on to somebody else’s land without a lawful excuse is an offence itself and is one of the rare forms of tort claims in which a claimant can bring a claim without having to prove any damage has occurred. However, it is not a criminal offence and so property owners must bring their claim in the civil courts.
     
  4. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    Correct, so its not illegal in law.
     
  5. Xenaphobia

    Xenaphobia New Member

    It is not a criminal act, but it is still a breach of civil law. It is still illegal, just not criminal.

    The point I need clarification on is that how can on one hand a Gas Safe Installer be happy to do such an installation yet Gas Safe Technical helpline say it should not be installed across a boundary.
     
  6. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select


    Not sure it can, a condensing boilers outlet should be 2.5metres from a bondery I believe.
     
  7. big all

    big all Screwfix Select

    you are confusing 2 separate issues
    one is the correct and safe working off the boiler which it sounds like it complies with so its correct and will pass
    the other issue is the legitimacy on your land and that part is wrong on all levels
    providing you are 100% sure its on your land you can ask them to remove it but you cannot touch it as that would be criminal damage
     
    Deleted member 33931 likes this.
  8. Xenaphobia,

    As mentioned, Gas Safe, Building Regs - nothing to do with it. This is trespass which is a civil matter. (it potentially becomes criminal when you get a judgement in your favour and your neighbour refuses to comply).

    Easiest way to deal with this is simple letter from a solicitor £100-£150. Make sure you use a reputable solicitor who specialises in property and litigation.
     
  9. Xena, how did they gain access to that border wall in order to fit it in the first place? (Or is it yet to be fitted?)

    I do believe there are two issues here, one being the 'trespass' and the other being the possible nuisance caused by the plume once it's up and running.

    I understand the first one is cut and clear - they aren't allowed to do this.

    A plume causing a nuisance is also a valid issue, but will probably be more time-consuming to resolve if the installation has been allowed to be made.

    You need to make it clear to them that this is the case, ideally by recorded delivery letter (or hand delivered with a witness). I'd get that to them asap even before bothering to find a solicitor - hopefully it'll be enough to give them pause.

    Perhaps just a general & reasonable "I am giving notice that I am not giving permission for...and will take action to have it removed if you proceed. Please save us both a great deal of hassle and money by accepting & acknowledging that this is trespass over my land and breaches civil law. Further, whichever alternative method of flue installation you decided to install must ensure that any 'plume' does not cause a nuisance to anyone outwith your property. I hope you'll appreciate that these are perfectly reasonable demands such as I would expect you to make of me where the situations reversed."

    If they then try and continue, then you'll need your solicitor, I'm afraid, unless you carry out the research to enable you to do this yourself.

    Bottom line - there are almost certainly alternative install methods. There are boilers with 2-pipe flue systems to overcome long, complex runs, or they could take it straight through the roof, etc etc. They just don't want to.
     
  10. Xenaphobia

    Xenaphobia New Member

    This is what I came back from holiday to find installed - I had asked for prior notice of any boundary trespass but I think because I was away they went ahead. The whole of that first install is across the boundary line and the terminal is facing my patio (from where I took the photograph). Currently the flue travels up the wall and plumes horizontally across my neighbours pitched roof (about 3 cm above the tiles).
     

    Attached Files:

  11. rd1

    rd1 Member

    Xen,
    Nice neighbours to sneak in and do this while you are away!

    However, you state that;
    'Neighbour is claiming it complies with Gas Safe regulations and Building Control have approved it. I rang Gas Safe Technical line and they said that no flue part, particularly air intake/terminal should be sited over a boundary - building control said the same - surely they can't both be correct? 'This seems to me to be the important point. I would have thought that the simple reason the flue or any part of it should not go over a boundary is that it is not under the control of the owner/occupier.

    A quick search shows that this point is clear in 'Approved Document J'- Building regs for Combustion appliances and fuel storage systems. This doc defines 'boundary' at point 4 on page 10 and states;
    'The boundary is the boundary of the land or buildings belonging to and under the control of the owner'. It also refers the reader to diagram 1 showing different boundary situations. It seems to me, as a layperson, that the boundary shown in the document for your situation, excludes the external side of the wall they have used.

    How can your neighbour guarantee the integrity of their flue? what happens if you decide to allow the ivy to grow up against it , lean equipment against it and so on. I would speak with building control and refer to the Approved doc then proceed from there, it is of course possible that Building Control should not have passed it and need the challenge.

    I must point out that this is only my understanding of the situation and you should satisfy yourself that my interpretation is correct from the Building regs documents.
    Good luck and hope you find a satisfactory solution.
     
  12. big all

    big all Screwfix Select

    are you 100% sure its all your land as in downpipes and roof overhang would suggest theres a chance its not exactly at the wall ??
     
  13. Ah, so, a fait accompli?

    Your call how you handle this, Xena.

    If it is genuine trespass and you want it removed, then you'll need to follow the correct procedure - which will be time-consuming and possibly a bit costly too. No idea if you can add that cost to your 'damages'.

    If it is a genuine nuisance, then that would be the thing to do.

    If, however, it isn't an issue in a practical way, then you may decide to be the better person and make it clear to them that, whilst you are not impressed at all by the obviously underhand way they did this when you weren't there - especially after you made it clear that all boundary issues should be discussed beforehand - and that you could force them to remove it if you were so minded, you will instead tolerate it for the sake of good relations. You add that will continue to be a good, helpful neighbour when needed, but that clearly this will affect the trust you have in them in future.





    Alternatively, you could walk up that gap with a heavy extension ladder, accidentally knock in to it, rush round immediately telling them what a klutz you are and you are sooooo sorry but they should turn off their boiler RIGHT AWAY and call out a GasSafe to check it out...
     
  14. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    :D:D:D
     
  15. rd1

    rd1 Member

    Would a Gas Safe installer have issued a Building control type of 'completion certificate' for this type of work? It would be interesting to know whether BC would have signed it off if it was down to them and not the Gas Safe installer. If BC say they would not, then it would be interesting to see what the installer or company then say about their 'mistake'.

    Personally,I don't think the situation is a fait accompli as Mr DA states although how far do you want to take it and do I like the alternative he provides for you to consider.
     
  16. I mean fait accompli only in that it has been fitted - not that it necessarily has to stay that way.

    I'm pretty sure - if it's as the OP says (eg that neighbour's house wall represents the true boundary) that he could force them to remove it if he wishes.

    However, a thought - doesn't that neighbour's roof eaves overhang their wall to pretty much the same extent as that flue? Ie - is the true boundary actually a good few inches beyond that wall - so the flue could well be inside it?

    Still, it seems a strange decision to have a flue positioned there. It'll require access for checking and repair, and it could also cause a pluming nuisance.

    Xena, what is in that ground space along that wall. Does the plume represent a nuisance to you or another neighbour?
     
  17. Glad its Friday

    Glad its Friday Active Member

    I think the first thing you should do is get out your deeds and check them very carefully. Wouldn't surprise me to find that your neighbour has a right of access down there to maintain his property. Sure, he should have asked your permission, but (reading between the lines), he knew you didn't get on and would refuse, so got it done while you were away. Out of order - yes.

    Is it really so detrimental to the value of your house? Is it really worth having a major fall out with your neighbour over this? Up to you but I suspect if you try to get it moved it will cost you far more in legal costs than the negative effect on the valve of your house, and you could well loose anyway.

    Save your money and replace your old Vaillant instead :)
     
  18. Dave does Gas

    Dave does Gas Screwfix Select

    If you want to dispute this with your neighbour and that has to be your choice as you will have to live next door to him/her for the foreseeable future, you could get Gas Safe involved.
    British standard 5440 Part 1 recommends care is taken when siting a terminal in relation to boundary lines and a horizontal flue should be a minimum of 600mm distance to a boundary line. Or 2mtr if the plume from a condensing appliance is likely to cause a nuisance to a neighbour.
    You could ask Gas Safe to intervene but they will probably need the co-operation of your neighbour.
     
  19. Xenaphobia

    Xenaphobia New Member

    Gas Safe have requested an inspection - they say if neighbour does not cooperate then they will just do an external inspection.
    As to previous questions re boundary - it is on line of wall - overhanging eaves were done when the extension was built in 1972 - I had all this checked out when I bought
    the property.
    I am just going to have to bite the bullet and issue a writ.
    On another note there was a window on the boundary (which hardly opened - small top quarter light) they replaced it with a standard window which is a breach of Approved Document K - Section 6,
    and Building Control did not even notice! BC seem not to want to do anything - maybe write to my councillor?
     
  20. Steven Harle

    Steven Harle New Member

    doesnt stick out anymore than the drainpipes...maybe you should get those removed also....or have a cup of tea and chill
     

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