Neutral arcing to Earth help please....?

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by slimjim, Jan 13, 2016.

  1. slimjim

    slimjim New Member

    Being a Muppet, it looks like I may have drilled into a section of socket ring in the wall (dammit!)
    Directly above (but about 3 feet higher than) a twin power socket.

    I did the work at the weekend but the RCD only tripped last night, after some torrential rain (just a co-incidence?)

    After turning off the socket ring, I got my multi-meter out to do a little testing and worked out that on one of the two power cable that lead into the back of the power socket, the Neutral and the Earth were arcing.

    Hoping that the one that wasn't arcing was the feed, I isolated the one that was and re-connected the one that wasn't, back to the socket. Luckily for me, this is now working.

    So I have a socket with two cables behind it. One linked and one isolated (electrical tape)

    I have three questions.

    1. Could it have taken 2 days for the fault to appear?
    Am I being paranoid that the rain we had last night had anything to do with it.

    2. Checking "all" the other sockets round the house, they are working. So I am confused as to where this second (now isolated) cable was going.
    Is there anyway I can find out what it does/where it goes? As disconnecting it seems to have not impacted anything I can see.

    3. If everything is now working fine, is there any reason why I shouldn't just leave things as they are? Or should I be extra cautious and try to get an electrician in to check the whole thing over?

    Hope someone can help!

    Slimjim, Professional Muppet.
     
  2. tina lucinda lane

    tina lucinda lane Screwfix Select

    get a spark in asap as that cable needs figureing out fast.
     
  3. diymostthings

    diymostthings Well-Known Member

     
  4. slimjim

    slimjim New Member

    I think I have basically turned my ring into two spurs.

    Not sure how this would be a problem.....
     
  5. jmvelectrical

    jmvelectrical New Member

    i
    It's not two spurs, but two radial circuits.
     
  6. diymostthings

    diymostthings Well-Known Member

    hi Slimjim. These are my own (DIY) opinions
    Q1. 2 days - yes, quite feasible if that is the problem. Rain - no, unless you can see a damp problem.
    Q2. Not straighforward. As you probably appreciate, the second (now isolated) cable is almost certainly part of the ring main from the socket. The reason the socket appears to work normally is that, being a ring main each socket is fed from both ends of the ring form the consumer unit, thereby doubling the current carrying capacity of the ring. By disconnecting one of the cables coming into the socket, you are breaking the ring circuit but all sockets are still supplied from each end but only with a single current carrying cable, halving the current carrying capacity. However the disconnected cable will still have that fault so I'm still not sure why the circuit now works fine.
    Q3. No, don't leave it. The probelm is still there and I would say that in halving the ring main current carying capacity you may possibly overheat the cables - at worst causing a fire.

    diymostthings
     
  7. tina lucinda lane

    tina lucinda lane Screwfix Select

    over loading the system to many spurs from one radial and fitted as a spur off spur system. thats what happens when you break a ring and keep running it also that dogey lead may still be live somewhere.

    Further more tape is not a viable isolation method at least termanial block it. (sometimes known as choc block) only time i insulation tape cable is cut and strip multi strand being feed. (rare i do this unless a cable route being replaced but cable is viable to re use. ie smashed conduit but cable survied)
     
  8. slimjim

    slimjim New Member

    Thanks guys....

    I'm guessing that I am going to need to cut out the plaster board and have a look. Dammit. :(
     
  9. slimjim

    slimjim New Member

    Yup, the tape was only a temp solution to test it. I will choc block it now.

    But also going to cut into the plaster board to find out where it issue is.

    Bugger. :(
     
  10. tina lucinda lane

    tina lucinda lane Screwfix Select

  11. PaulBlackpool

    PaulBlackpool Screwfix Select

    Only an amateur but IMHO the choc block should only be used as a temporary solution. Either put a maintenance free junction box in if you have room (if it is a stud wall) or replace the full length of damaged cable. A professional electrician should have the necessary experience, expertise and tools to do the job with a minimum of disruption.
     
  12. tina lucinda lane

    tina lucinda lane Screwfix Select

    i only suggest the use of termanial block as a safe method of isolating the cable not a perment fix
     
  13. slimjim

    slimjim New Member

    OK folks... a little more info. Which is making me even MORE confused.

    Cut away the plaster to find the cable cover.
    The good/bad news is, I have NOT breeched it. (Kind of looks like I have from the photos but I am pretty sure I haven't.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Also realised I may have done the same thing higher up the wall.
    So again, I cut away the plaster board to find this:
    [​IMG]
    .... also looks fine (AND VERY LUCKY)

    As I was getting the choc block (again, temp fix) from the garage, I thought I would try once more, just linking it all back up again.
    Which I have... and it is now all working again! So, I am now even MORE confused. :confused:
     
  14. slimjim

    slimjim New Member

    Done some FURTHER inspection. It looks like the connection/cable to the TV is frayed!!!!
    So all this worry could just be because the TV was plugged in and the damn cable was the issue. :mad:
     
  15. Rulland

    Rulland Screwfix Select

    You could well have damaged/shorted cables under that capping tbh, it may have 'blown' the fault clear for now, but I would inspect further.
     
    slimjim likes this.
  16. slimjim

    slimjim New Member

    I have a sparky coming to look at it tomorrow and see what he suggest.

    Thanks guys! :D
     
  17. big all

    big all Screwfix Select

    if you used hammer action i would suspect the cable may be damaged
     
  18. Lectrician

    Lectrician Screwfix Select

    When you say "arcing", was it little sparks, no bangs etc?

    With TN-S, if you short N to E, your installations N load can be diverted through the short to earth. While it may make a little spark, it is normal. The closer you are to the CU, the bigger the current could be. Obviously depends on what load you have too.

    Do you think it was just this you noticed?
     
    FatHands likes this.
  19. slimjim

    slimjim New Member

    No, when I say arcing, I mean I put a multimeter across the earth and neutral and got a reading. (AFTER the trip had switched)
    No bangs, no flash, no buzzing.

    Looking into it, that might be a REALLY stupid thing, as Earth and Neutral DO actualy link at some point, don' they?

    Yup... I have NO bloody clue. good job someone is coming tomorrow to sort it out. :rolleyes:
     
  20. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    If you had something plugged into that socket, it may have just heated the wires just enough to make them touch(after being damaged and close to each other). With nothing running there, now power bypasses that and doesn't heat up.
    You say you haven't breached it, but is that metal conduit/cable cover? Earthed?
    If so, may have been just squashed onto the neutral in the cable!

    Mr. HandyAndy - Really
     
    slimjim likes this.

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