Part P problem

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Puffer, Apr 7, 2015.

  1. Puffer

    Puffer Member

    I have just finished a four-year complete refurb of a derelict shell of a flat (above a shop, physically separate). The entire job was overseen by Building Control. If only because the work was carried out by me alone over this long period, I did nearly all the electrical installation myself progressively. I am not a qualified sparky but have done similar work over many years (for self and family) without issues. I was advised by a qualified electrician initially and he installed/certified the consumer unit and temporary power sockets. The agreed intention was that he would remain in touch and sign-off for Part P when the work was completed; there was no suggestion that this would give rise to problems. He then went to work abroad so was (and is) no longer available. Another electrician (NICEIC) agreed to inspect, certify and notify BC; there were no issues and he provided me with a 'clean' Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate. This is not (as I then found out) acceptable to BC under Part P and the electrician told me that his business was being restructured, he was seeking a new registration (which was taking a long time) and he would issue the correct certificate to BC asap. He has failed to do so and is now ignoring my communications.

    NICEIC has told me that the second electrician was correctly authorised at the time of his certificate, but not to certify third-party work - and that no NICEIC electrician can do this. It invited me to complain about his conduct; I have not yet done so. BC tells me that I must either use its appointed inspector or engage an electrician authorised to certify third-party work to Part P; this I understand.

    Aside from any action I pursue against the electrician, I should appreciate advice on the best way out of this problem in order to gain the necessary Part P certificate to satisfy BC and thus get final sign-off on the property. Obviously, I don't want to throw too much more money at the problem than necessary. I'm not sure which sparkies are suitably qualified for the purpose; is there anyone willing and able to help, please - the property is in Whitstable (Kent)?
     
  2. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    Why can't BC issue the required paperwork after all they have overseen the entire fix.
     
  3. Puffer

    Puffer Member

    Because the building inspectors are not themselves qualified electricians so have to rely on someone who is, as I understand it! And my Domestic cert is not good enough for Part P, it seems.
     
  4. sparky Si-Fi

    sparky Si-Fi Screwfix Select

    BC will not get involved in any electrical aspect, they want a name but not theirs!
     
  5. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    sections 3.8/3.9 of the part p regs says differently.
     
  6. FatHands

    FatHands Well-Known Member

    Puffer - not that this will help you, but the support (or rather the lack of it) depends on your local council. I can think of a few instances where extensions, lofts etc have been developed where the electrician is not part of a government-backed scheme and building control have just asked for an EICR at the end of it (this doesn't have to be the person who did the installation work) - perhaps ask if they will accept this (assuming there are no problems found).
    Its unlikely anyone is going to provide you with a installation certificate because you have done the work.
     
    flateric likes this.
  7. Puffer

    Puffer Member

    I have an unqualified EICR and have shown it to BC. I am told that this is not sufficient as nothing has been registered online and I should get the work inspected/certified either by Council's approved contractor or by another contractor who can do a third-party certification (the authorisation for which I am told exists). It seems to be the lack of an online record that is the main stumbling block. If this stance is correct, I am trying to establish who can do the work for me.
     
  8. FatHands

    FatHands Well-Known Member

    Do building control want an installation certificate, or condition report?
     
  9. Puffer

    Puffer Member

    As I understand it, the entire new installation needs to be certified under Part P to satisfy BC. Both the electricians I refer to in my OP told me that they could provide the required certificate to the Council on the basis of being satisfied as to the design and construction of the installation (nearly all my work) and of course after testing it. They were both family connections, qualified and I thought reliable! The first signed-off the CU etc but then went overseas; the second inspected all and gave me a certificate accepting responsibility for everything, but no cert online and not apparently acceptable. He has promised to put this right, never has and now refuses to respond. Although I would appear to have a good and safe installation, I lack the authoritative statement to satisfy BC.
     
  10. BLUEJACKET

    BLUEJACKET Active Member

    Does not an EICR outweigh an installation certificate?

    B J
     
  11. FatHands

    FatHands Well-Known Member

    2 different things mate. the installation cert details the work completed and by whom and its been done to spec. a condition report is the inspectors findings of the installation that is already in service. its a bit like you doing all the work on your van at mot time. the garage will give you the mot but not a cert to say they have done the repairs.

    puffer- call BC and ask them to clarify which document they need
     
  12. Napolean

    Napolean Member

    No one can issue an installation certificate unless they've been responsible for, or at least overseen the installation.
    so that leaves an EICR (- let us know if you don't know the difference puffer),
    This can't be a new thing to BC -illness & businesses going bust etc. so they should have a ready answer for whether EICR is acceptable & if not why not. Don't think you need to be over defensive with them.
     
  13. Sparks.

    Sparks. Member

    It just shows the inconsistencies of building control. I'm not Part P registered but my local building Control seem happy to accept my installation certificates on my own work. Only once, at the start of a job, did a local BC guy ask to see my 'qualifications' which I duly showed him, along with my insurance. He was perfectly satisfied with this. Why don't you visit your local BC office and speak to someone there (other than the guy you've been dealing with) and clarify the position?
     
  14. spinlondon

    spinlondon Screwfix Select

    Did you notify Building Control before the work was started?
    If so then they are responsible for signing off for Part P.
    Tell them to provide the service you have paid for, or you will make a formal complaint, first to the Council, then to the Obudsman.
     
    FatHands likes this.
  15. Puffer

    Puffer Member

    I've only now been able to catch up with helpful comments above. To recap:

    1. I didn't notify BC at outset about my involvement as the original sparky had assured me that he could and would advise as necessary and sign off for BC. But the building inspector (who has always been helpful) was aware of my ongoing involvement and this 'supervision'.
    2. The second sparky was equally happy with the arrangement, did his inspection and tests and was happy with everything. His cert states clearly: 'I being the person responsible for the design, construction and testing ... hereby certify ... in accordance with BS7671:2008 amended to July 2011 ...'. That is surely an installation cert? He had valid authorisation at that time.
    3. I don't know exactly why the cert (or copy) was not then given to BC (Reg 3.4) and, despite sparky 2's promises, I have never got him to do this or to explain himself - and now he can't be contacted.
    4. BC has seen the cert I was given. It says that it can only accept one that is provided online. I don't understand why the omission to provide online should be so much of a problem.
    5. If the cert I have is not acceptable as a valid 'installation certificate', then surely it fulfills the purpose of an EICR (Reg 3.6)? If so, why is is not acceptable in a third-party installation situation?
    6. BC tells me that I must either pay for its nominated contractor to inspect everything or find my own contractor with authority to give a valid third-party EICR. And I cannot yet find anyone who does the latter. I am hoping that the failure to notify BC and engage contractor before work was started does not create a further problem, e.g. because not all cabling etc is now clearly visible.

    Before I go back to BC and attempt to make a further case for acceptance 'as is', does anyone wish to comment further, please? I realise that I have created this problem for myself by not following correct procedure (regardless of the competence of my own elements of the work), but I only did so on the clear understanding from two qualified electricians that they could work with me on this basis.
     
  16. FatHands

    FatHands Well-Known Member

    this will depend on your local council mate. let us know how you get on ;)
     
  17. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    Just pay the council, BC, the fee due, this is standard practice for getting it signed off.

    Learn from the mistake of trusting somebody to do something without checking their ability to do so in the first place.
     
  18. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    There are some problems and all I can say is when I wanted to work on my mothers house then I also found to start with the inspector was unwilling to accept my sons signature on the installation certificate. They can ask to see qualifications but with me they took my word for it and agreed to accept my signature on the installation certificate. If not from a scheme provider it is down to the council inspector to authorise who can complete the installation certificate. However if you failed to get the council to agree before starting then they can force you to have it all done again.

    Many councils will accept an EICR but this is rather odd as there is no need to register an EICR in theroy anyone can do one so in the main councils will appoint someone and you have no option but to employ who they say.

    As far as third party goes well like the council they have to be involved from the start and likely once the council knows as they do that he was not involved from the start they would not want to issue any installation certificate.

    If the consumer unit was changed and registered then only the bathroom will be a problem. What would be the result if you got a scheme member to re-wire bathroom and re-install consumer unit? But the point is if you try any tricks to get it passed then likely you will alienate the council and the simple way is just do as they say. If you have to pay £800 to get it signed off that's cheaper than doing another re-wire.

    We can argue until the cows come home about what a new circuit is. But the only person who matters is the LABC inspector and you took a chance and you didn't pay up front to LABC and it has not paid off.

    Remember my LABC inspector would not accept my sons signature with C&G 2391 and at that time 2381 and he would only accept my signature after my son volunteered I had a degree in electrical and electronic engineering. Personally I feel he should have accepted the C&G 2391 and he should have refused my degree (although I also had a C&G 2391 although he was not told that.) To me he clearly had no idea what a 2391 was or a 2381 and all he wanted was for some one he knew and trusted to do the testing.

    I will guess it will be the same with you and as long as you use the guy the inspector selects then it will all go through.

    I am not happy with the LABC system. I would have thought the LABC should issue permits to work? That way any electrician working without being shown the permit would know he needed to be a scheme member. But there are no permits issued it's all word of mouth so if I go to work on a house and the owner says council has been informed then I can get on with the work and issue an installation certificate. That is then passed to the LABC by the owner which all complies with the law.

    However if the LABC think you are using a scheme member then there is a problem. And it seems it's only a tick box on an application to say if scheme member is being used or if council is to inspect and test electrics. In my case the builder walked off site and it was not until I went to council to say I was taking over the job that I found the builder had not registered the work. The LABC inspector was very careful to point out it's the responsibility of the owner not the builder to inform the LABC and really told off my dad. Do remember when I did it the old rules applied. Work in a bathroom, new circuits, outside, kitchens, CU change all needed to be registered and still do where I live. But where you live it's consumer unit, bathroom and new circuits only. A re-wire as name suggests is replacing existing circuits so only bathroom and CU are really a problem.
     
    FatHands likes this.
  19. flateric

    flateric Well-Known Member

    I have inspected 3rd party work and managed to get it signed off, it will depend who you are talking to an how you approach them..... If you go in demanding you will get nowhere.
     
    FatHands likes this.
  20. Carl Wright

    Carl Wright New Member

    I can only say from my own experience of my local council. I am a qualified time served elctrician but I work in heavy industry and I can't do any work that requires Part P for anyone other than myself. I can do it for myself as a qualified diy project (as long as I have all my certification availabe). So you could do the regs course and maybe an inspection & testing course this would make you a qualified diy'er but it probably would be cheaper and easier to just pay BC to check it over. But it sounds to me that BC are making you jump through hoops because you didn't stick to the rules so perhaps they wouldn't allow you to even do this now.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice