Anyone had any experience with a party wall dispute. The properties both sides which are both council owned are intending to dispute, the surveyor from the council has said that they are concerned with the extend of the loading on the party walls and cutting into it to accept the steel universal columns for a loft conversion. Even though I have paid for a structural engineer at a cost of over £700. Has put everything on hold, they have told me to appoint a party wall surveyor, to ask for drawings to show how steels will be supported. If they still dispute after this where could this lead?
The trouble with party walls is that it can be an endless drain on your wallet. At any time during the build they can engage a surveyor of their choice and you have to foot the bill. Also work cannot commence until you have a party wall agreement. And the bit people often forget is that you are still liable for any cracks or subsidence for 10 years after the build is complete.
Party walls can be a nightmare, & expensive on the pocket. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._Wall_etc__Act_1996_-_Explanatory_Booklet.pdf
Urgh, sounds painful, Jit I suspect that employing PW solicitors at the beginning may have been a good idea, but - oops - that's too late now. I don't think it has to be that expensive, tho'. I'd hope for a start that only one surveyor would need to be employed for both sides? I'd also hope that he/she would be able to look at your detailed plans, perhaps also converse with your SE, and be reassured that it's all been properly designed. That's the main reassurance they require. They'd then only need to attend occasionally just to confirm it is being done as per the design says.
I'm thinking may be not to go ahead, these things can become very expensive. And some PW surveyors are charging a very high hourly rate. If the houses were privately owned then there were no objections from the neighbors side, I am also unsure why their surveyor is saying that he feels that the wall will be affected since there has been no inspection of them. I think I will go back to the SE and see whether they can change all the steels designs so that the aren't resting (embedded) on the party walls. I was already quoted £2k for the steels so far, the only way around this would be they rest front and back of the house, but felt this would be very expensive as the steels they would want to rest on another UC resting under the wall plate. The only option I can see is to use the telebeams, the span is 7.2m so would have to go with the 225mm beams, I am awaiting a quote for this so far - but it wouldn't allow a dormer to be built as they would only support the roof and new floor. I am expecting them to cost about 5K, but they wouldn't need structural calcs supposedly as they are LABC approved. If I had commenced work without agreement they said they would go to court and put in an injunction.
Worst case with Party Wall is you have one, they have one. Being "experts" they disagree so a third has to be employed all on your dollar. 2 sides potentially brings 2 more aboard but at least you have same owner both sides so this shouldn't arise. I always advise my clients to engage a PW surveyor to act for you from the getgo if there is the chance of problems. Where did you get the idea that you can't have a dormer with Telebeams?? They did a large loft that I had designed with (shedloads of) conventional steels and subsequently was built by a company I work for part-time. This had 2 large dormers plus stairs that crossed the truss line so it really didn't look like one they could do. Yes they're not cheap but in this case we saved a load of scaffolding, large holes in the roof, big carne in tight spot. Talk to them they are very good and very approachable
I think telebeams may be the way to go, did ring them and said dormers can be put in. The SE said to avoid cutting into the party wall then new beams would have to be used which would span the front to the back of house either side, which are likely to be huge and spanning at 7.2m!
Surely the council would employ the PW solicitors, and surely only one for both houses? If so, they must have someone in mind for this - a list of approved peeps? Surely, therefore, worth a visit and a chat? Take your drawings down. If they guy they would employ happens to know your SE, then he'll hopefully have him down as guy who does things properly. Once they look at the drawings and SE calcs, it'll be a case - as with a BCO - "Ok, that all looks fine. I'll be down at these stages to confirm it's being done as per these drawings..." I mean, what actual issues could there be? The tenants aren't going to raise any issues - it has nothing to do with them. So your SE will only be dealing with another pro. And unless he's a complete git, he'll just want reassurances that all is conforming. That's it. It strikes me as tho' this could be far easier that if you were dealing with private owners. To be honest, if you had private owners, I'd be bludy astonished if they didn't want the PW Act enacted for this - you are going in to their shared walls! They would be very foolish indeed if they didn't. And, they'd be more likely to complain about any issues they can - 'cos it's affecting their house. Surely worth a chat with some peeps before you expensively compromise on your plans?
If you price this up and find it's comparable - allowing for what the PWA would have cost otherwise - then perhaps that's the way to go right enough.
Telebeams quote has come in at £4.9k so not far off what i had originally thought. I can pay £150 for a survey without obligation, this is refundable if an order is placed. To put a dormer it is more expensive as each telebeam needs to be strengthened with steel, also a ridge beam will need to be ordered, but would be provided with the drawings. I think I would still go for a 'velux' roof construction. Steels would have costed £2k, and all the PW issue could be an expensive route. The PW surveyor for the council was provided with all the cals (28 pages).
If think this indicates the Councils stance is that probably they don't want the work to go ahead. It may be worth getting the local councilor or MP involved to see what their issue is.
I did originally go through planning for this as it involved 2x small box dormers to the front. The council said that the dormers would have to be removed, the drawings were updated just to include the rear box dormer. For which they said that it came under 'permitted development' so no planning was needed, I had already paid the fee which was non refundable. I have spoken to building control today and he knows the surveyor, and said is was quite peculiar that they are disputing as BC had approved the plans.
Any party wall or fence is a minefield of problems,a mate of mine bought a house last year,he was talking to a few of the neighbours and they all asked if he'd met "boundary Bob" yet,it turned out they meant the neighbour in the adjoining semi.Over the last year he's been doing up the house and recently decided to replace the fence between the 2 houses,its falling to pieces and as he has a dog and a small child he wanted the property secure.Unsure as to the ownership of the fence he approached the neighbour regarding it's replacement.Now all he wanted was to replace the fence with a new one,he didn't want the neighbour to contribute to the costs,as far as he was concerned it needed replacing and even if it belonged to the old chap next door he was willing to pay to have it replaced. This is where it all got rather ugly,despite the fence being dead centre of the boundary,as marked clearly on the deeds,"boundary Bob"is adamant that the fence is actually on his land and that the house next door has "stolen" nearly a metre of his land.My mate offered to pay for a surveyor to check this but the guy won't have it,he's also threatened that if my mate replaces the fence then he'll knock it down. He was talking to the neighbour on the other side about this and he said "oh yes,it's been going on for years,that's why we call him boundary Bob". My mate could just erect a new fence behind this one,but I think he's going to take it down the legal route,as he says,"the guy has bullied previous neighbours,he's not bullying me".
BC rang me and are now saying that the surveyor isn't disputing about the loading but now wants that a PW surveyor is employed. Does make sense as they would be an unbiased individual who would report the conditions of the wall both sides prior to and after the works. A bit like an inventory, if a crack appeared on the neighbors side which was previously there then it would have been identified in the condition. There was an episode on cowboy builders where the team punched the steel through the other side and had to make good. At present am not decided which system to use? telebeam = this will use 225mm beams, whereas with the steels I was going to use a 145mm I joists. So a gain of 80mm which doesn't seem very much but due to limited head room would make a big difference. If a rear box dormer was to be created then the addition of the ridge beam is a must, and if installed would make the room height bigger that end so am tethering towards using steels.
I have to say, the council threatening and injunction if you went ahead without a PWA after them telling you they wanted one would be absolutely fair enough. Just like any private owner next door - if they asked for one and you said 'non', then too darned right they'd 'injunct' you. That doesn't mean anything other than they are looking after their won interests - quite right. And, if you were to try and go ahead without the PWA they asked for, then also too darned right they'd have you marked down as a 'problem' - and they'd be all over you like a whatsit. If their PW surveyor has seen your plans, could you now have a chat with him? Along the lines of - if my builders do everything exactly according to these plans, and cause no damage, what will it cost me to have the PWA enacted? Surely he can give you a guide price for a straight forward job with no disputes? And, if your builder then causes problems, then that's for him to sort out - not you . I think I'd try and get this quote for the PWA, and then simply decide - adding that sum - which of the two options is best for you.
I had a price for one surveyor who would charge £475+ VAT to do each side, it's about £75+ to construct the letter of notice. So could be looking at £1320 in total. I will ring them tom to find out what this cost actually involve and how many visits etc. I'll def go through the correct procedure for this as don't want to end up on the wrong side. The BC has cleared up a few things.
The survey from the council rang to me today and said that they don't mind the work going ahead, but wants the correct procedure to be followed. One surveyor appointed surveyor they are happy with. Was promised the quote to come today, but will look tomorrow.
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