have a huge problem with a project i have completed... I have painted a Hall/Stairs/Landing where the existing varnished skirting was primed with Zinsser BIN, followed by 2 coats of Dulux Undercoat and 1 coat of Dulux Satinwood. Preparation was rub down with 120 grit abrasive followed by wipe down with damp cloth. Each coat was painted on separate days so each coat was dry. 2 months after painting the customer has had the HSL carpetted and, where knocked, the paint coats have completely chipped back to the varnish, demonstrating a complete lack of adhesion of the priming coat as can be seen by the attached picture. 1) Is there anything that I have done wrong from what you can see 2) What could have caused the problem 3) How do i fix it 4) What should i do on the next occasion. Thx http://img98.imageshack.us/i/dsc00166oo.jpg
Hi Bod, Why did you decide to apply Zinsser BIN as the first coat (it is not a primer as it has been applied over a previously coated surface) did you, for instance, find evidence of bleeding'? Zinsser BIN is a shellac-based primer/sealer, its main use being to hold back certain kinds of stains or odours. Many varnishes harden over time and may even become brittle. A shellac-based coating over such a surface is likely to give very poor adhesion. Sometimes it is best to completely remove the old varnish, especially some very old short oil varnishes. Providing a good key is important so you should rub down very thoroughly without breaking through the varnish. Apply an undercoat which is of the alkyd binder type, such as Dulux Trade Undercoat, as these have very good adhesive properties. Then carry on with the rest of your coats. However, in this case you could have applied Dulux Satinwood throughout as the binder of this paint is also of the alkyd type. You would have also achieved a superior finish with two or three coats of Satinwood, rather than one coat of Satinwood over the undercoat. If you have to rectify this job, then it is probably best to strip it completely, back to bare wood, and do it again, properly.
Goodwill, thanks for your usual comprehensive, informed and informative reply. I used Zinsser BIn as I was concerned about exactly the problem I am having and felt that that was the best practice. It certainly seems to be the panacea for this forum. However, I did check the Zinsser website and it recommmends BIN specifically for painting previously varnished surfaces. It's quite likely that I have to strip and redo, although I will try out undercoat and satinwood straight onto varnish in small test areas to check adhesion. Please don't take this the wrong way but you ought to put a little thought into your phrasing because your posts have a tendency to be a sharp and condescending. I am sure that this is not your intention but it leads to a ping pong of posts that have little additional value. Thanks again
Picture isn't working for me. To be honest, from your explanation, I don't think you've done much wrong. But something has gone wrong. As you say BIN is recommended for this type of job. Not just on this forum (LOADS of times) but in all the Zinsser literature. Maybe contact them? They might have changed the formulation, or something?............ Bit stumped really. Maybe use Ultra Grip Primer next time. Are you liable for people knocking lumps out of paintwork two months are finishing?
Bod. That pic tells me that we are not only talking about the application of an unsuitable primer. The prep is somewhat disturbing, whilst in the past Goodwill and I have not seen eye to eye. I believe he gave very good advice, and you will need to strip back and start again. Potty.
Thought it was a great answer from Goodwill. Got my doubts about all this "Zinsser hype" over varnish. Id've used 400, wet, with Soda crystals and one of those green scourers, followed by u/c then satinwood or even as Goodwill suggests....straight on with the satin. Can you not just tape the carpet, rub it down without going berserk, touch up amd tell the customer it's normal for carpet fitters to chisel paint off and leave it.
Again, thanks for all the responses. I take them on board. Handy - "it looks like water based over oil" - it isn't - shellac based primer and oil based U/C and top coat Potty - "disturbing prep" - please explain further. I have no problems with GW's advice at all. Guttercat - Had thought of that but am frankly so disappointed in the result that I would expect that each bang with a hoover will bring more of the same. Bod
Bod, after reading my post again I can understand why you require an explanation. It wasn't intended to offend, it just appeared to be lacking prep in that area, staircases are sometimes difficult to get right. The angle of which you work and natural light being major factors, I myself have often been guilty of doing this. With regard to the explanation given by Goodwill, I believe it would be the better way to go. Guttercat also raised a very good point with regard to the use of Zinsser, although a suberb product it can sometimes be over estimated. Varnish does tend to become brittle after time and bearing that in mind any further application is prone to fail. Once again if I have in any way offended you, allow me to offer my unreserved apology. Potty.
Hi Bod, I don't disagree regarding your comments about the phrasing of some of my posts. I've taken the odd bit of stick for the way some of my posts have been percieved. I have a tendency to take a pragmatic approach to the answers I give, which may, on occasions I agree, seem that I am being rather sharp. I apologise if any of my posts have come across as condecending, that has never been my intention. I am pleased that Potty, Guttercat and me are in agreement in offering some help in solving your problem. I hope you get it sorted without making too much of a loss. Good luck
Really hard luck Bod1. It's amazing how tricky 'just being a decorator' can be sometimes. Great replies Zissner interior I am fairly sure just is not that strong and not that sticky on no absorbent surfaces as others have mentioned. It looks as though it has been banged about before the paint has fully cured? Personally I would see how readily it flakes off by giving it a good sand / scrape just to get an idea of how tough it is right now. Unless its weak I would just touch up and tell the customer to go easy with a hoover due to the varnish being a poor base. Possibly give the vulnerable bits another coat just to toughen it up a little. It is not ideal, but stripping what a pain.
So.. Just to be sure, me and matey tried some Zinsser bin over varnish to see how good it sticks and..... it's rubbish. Oil based undercoat, is still the right product to use.
Haven't posted for a while, hope everyone is busy, healthy, happy etc. Anyway I'm quite surprised by this recent bout of Zinsser BIN bashing. I've been using the stuff for years and never had any problems like the one in this thread. One question for the original poster regarding his initial prep, did you abrade and wash down before applying the BIN? I only ask this as I know that stair risers often get dusted by the homeowner with furniture polish and over time can build up a healthy layer of wax or silicone, and as we know nuthin' ain't gonna stick to that. Plus BIN takes a few days to really achieve maximum hardness/adhesion, so unless Guttercat had left his BIN test for a few days it would be unfair to say the Zinsser is rubbish. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter and can I assure you I don't have any affiliation with Zinsser other than being a happy consumer!!
An update for you all. Having discussed the problem with Zinsser the suggested problem was wax/silicone polish, I also took on board comments from this forum. I scraped a strip of skirting with a razor blade - not too difficult, proving again how poorly the primer had bonded. I split the strip into 3 columns and 3 rows, the columns were prepped with 1) meths wipe, 2) no prep 3) Sanded back hard. I then painted the rows with a) BIN, b) U/coat c) Satinwood. 2 weeks later i checked the bond by scratching with a razor blade. The results were - no paint or primer bonded where I had not prepped, where I wiped with meths there was some improvement but the scratching revealing dark varnish underneath. Sanding back hard to get under the varnish surface worked best, in particular the undercoat took really well and any scratching would not break bond. Customer is going away for 3 days and I will be lifting carpets, scraping old (new paint), sanding undercoating and 2 coats of satinwood. Should sort it out. I am still none the wiser on what I would do if in a similar situation in the future. I still think that what i did was close to ideal in the first place but didn't work on this old varnish.
Did this on 12 Oct 09 over varnish. From left to right - Dulux Acrylic / Zin Bin / Macpherson's oil u/c / Crown Solo Satin / Crown Solo Gloss. Just ran a 1" blade through them twice at the same pressure and also used my nail :O on the edges to see which is best and worst.
Firstly, I thought that was a brilliant post from Jimbob. He brought to light something that we all forgot to mention. Wih regard to Bullseye 123, that would in my humble opinion have been a far better choice than Bin on that type of substrate. It also brings to mind the post from Goodwill with regard to the adhesive properties of an alkyd based undercoat. One of the unusual situations that the Dec will face from time to time. Have a good weekend guys. Potty.
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