Putting up fencing issue

Discussion in 'Landscaping and Outdoors' started by manpower, Sep 14, 2015.

  1. manpower

    manpower New Member

    Hi, I recently bought a first floor flat, it comes with a garden and a parking space at rear, the right hand side of the garden is mine, the left hand side is downstairs owner (they will need to pass through my side to go to their back door), because the downstairs owner built an extension at rear, it makes the entrance of my parking space very tight for a car to get in and out, therefore I decide to use the parking space as a garden as well, which means my garden will be longer including the parking space. The rear garden and parking space is like an open area at the moment, so I am going to put some fence there to have my privacy. The problem is, the downstairs owner does not allow me to put a fence close to his extension saying that it will block the light to their window.
    I understand that I need to leave some space at top of the parking space to let them access their back door for kind of safety exit reason.., but how much space do I need to give? Is there any rule to follow?
    Also, am I allowed to change the parking space to garden at all?

    I hope I say it clear, if not, please let me know.
     
  2. KIAB

    KIAB Super Member

  3. Very very hard for us to judge on here, manpower. At least not without some more info like photos, perhaps.

    On the surface, it looks as tho' the ground floor flat owner wants his cake and eat it. He's had his extension, he has his access, but he doesn't want you to have your extended garden.

    That's 'on the surface', of course. We don't know the full details on here.

    Some issues - (a) the right of light. That can be a legitimate issue (unlike the 'right to a view' which, apparently, isn't...) so if your fence was to cut their indoor light levels down a significant amount, then they would have a case against you.

    BUT, it all depends on how much light would be lost, and that can involve all sorts of testing and metering should it come to a 'case'.

    It sounds as tho' the flat owners just don't want any light being reduced (which is understandable) but this might not be reasonable. It all comes down to where your fence will be positioned. Will it be right along their window, for example?!

    When you say you want some privacy (again, reasonable enough), does that include shielding off that flat-owner's window? If so, just how close to that window are you planning to go?

    Are you in a position to sit down and discuss this with the other flat owners? If so, can you arrive at a compromise - such as you'll make that section of fence a lattice type, or will keep it x distance from their window?

    Anyways, impossible for us to judge without some basic info.
     
  4. May be worth chatting to building control see what they say, always thought that if not over 6ft and within your boundary you would be ok
     
  5. manpower

    manpower New Member

    Thanks people.
    The fence is 6ft, the distance between their extension to the fence I want to put is about 4ft wide that I thought it is enough for them to pass through as an exit kind of thing. They also said I'm not allow to put the fence on the parking space area... really?
    Not sure about building control, people always say talk to council, but I don't want to open a case at this stage and hope we can sort it out discussing with them but I wan to know what my right is?
     
  6. Yep, I doubt this has anything to do with building control.

    And, yep, 4' sounds generous enough for a walk-through (tho' you should consult your deeds to see what exactly it says.)

    They say you cannot put a fence around the parking area? Your individual parking area?

    Would this fence encroach on their parking space at all?
     
  7. malkie129

    malkie129 Screwfix Select

    If they built the extension,then I can't see that you are obliged to comply with any of their conditions,but as DA says,checkyour deeds to be sure.
     
  8. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

    Sounds like you have a maisonette as these tend to come with the kind of set up you describe. Because this will a leasehold property it would be a good idea to find out who the freeholder is, it could possibly be the council.

    When you purchased the property, you would have been given a plan of the property showing which section of land belongs to you when the solicitor acted on your behalf. On the plan boundaries will be identified with a 'T', if this is point in then you own that section of land.There is usually a section of land which both parties have the right to use, i.e the access to your rear garden etc.

    If there is a front garden, then this usually belongs to the ground floor tenant as well as the rear garden nearest the property, you may pay a small ground rent fee.
     
  9. manpower

    manpower New Member

    I attached a sketch here for easy reference.

    Yes, this is a maisonette and leasehold, the freeholder is ground floor tenant. When I purchased the property, I clearly said I needed to put fence on my own garden area, they agreed and signed the letter. The deed says I have a parking space at rear for my sole use, top of the parking space line is kissing their extension. I said before that because their extension makes the entrance so narrow to get a car in and out, so I just want to use the parking space as part of the garden, therefore the fence will be from back of the garden to front of the parking space, I will leave around 4ft for them to access their back door. They agreed first but then they changed their mind saying that I need to give more space, and suddenly they changed their mind again saying I'm not allowed to put a fence on the parking space.

    Is it because they are freeholder, they can ban me to do that? Can I argue with that?
    It is not fair that they have the extension used up some space already and I still have to give more space because they said my fence will block their light? If they go to council to open a case, will I have a chance to talk to council to explain myself before council make a decision? Will council consider what the deed says ? or only judge by their own thoughts? Should I go to my solicitor or go to council?
    I'm scratching my head...
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Hi Manpower.

    If they are the freeholders, then tread carefully - in theory, if you break the conditions of the lease, they can throw you out. In theory. Obviously you'd resolve these issues before that happened... But you cannot, without their express permission, breach the terms of the lease.

    So, it comes down to what the lease says.

    That parking space is allocated to you, yes? The lease says this too?

    In my opinion - and it's only an opinion - they are being a bit unreasonable. A bitty unfair. I can understand their point - they don't want a fence blocking their view or light - but, on balance, I can't see it's that much of a compromise when the benefits to you would be so good - a larger garden with some privacy.

    Ie - if they were more thoughtful, they might go 'Hmm, we'd rather not have a fence out there, but - hey - we're nice folk and good neighbs and we can see how much it would improve your garden, so ok then.'

    So, don't be too harsh in judging them - most peeps look out for themselves first.

    What to do? First, read through the terms of your lease in detail and see what that space is for - does it say 'allocated parking'? Does it say it's for flat 1? Does it say anything else - is there anything you cannot park there?

    Armed with this, approach them nicely - explain you do appreciate their reservations about light and stuff, so you wonder if, say, a trellis fence with climbing plants would be a compromise along there - it wouldn't be such a barrier?

    Or perhaps a 5' high fence only. Ok, then, 4'...

    Or, move the fence a couple of feet further into your parking space, and then place some troughs with nice plants along the 'path' side of the fence to soften it and give them a pleasant outlook from that window. After all, looking out on a parking space cannot be that scenic, can it?

    If they are off-the-wall unreasonable and being unjustifiably unfair about this, and refuse to even discuss these attempts at compormises- and if you don't really mind falling out with them - then do not buy a fence at all.

    Instead, go on eBay and buy the cheapest, nastiest, filthiest, most decayed and rotten wee caravan you can find, and park it there, allowing only the minimum path space for them to squeeze through. Make sure the 'van's sides are at least 6' high and dripping with mould and algae...

    Tell them it's your garden shed.


    :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2015
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  11. rd1

    rd1 Member

    Hi manpower,
    looking at your sketch it seems clear why your neighbour might not want to look out of the window onto the fence and gate you propose. It is unfair of them though, particularly if they had agreed to allow you to do this at point of sale. I feel sure your solicitor would be able to help if that was part of the sale agreement although that will cost you to instigate. That said I think they could still have a strong argument about loss of light, potential damage to the building from you driving in and the noise and fumes coming in through an open window. I guess it depends on what the agreement actually said about distance etc.

    Looking for a solution, and thinking that the turn in looks really tight ,is there access for you further down the fenceline on the right of the building? If so, perhaps you could suggest that the garden is split across ways which would allow the ground floor to look over their garden and you to have your turn in a little easier and away from them. If they agree there will still be the legal work to do but it should be minimal, if the access is not available on the right then I see no real way forward other than asking them to comply with the written agreement.
    I hope it works out for you.
     
  12. proby

    proby Active Member

    Not certain but I wouldn't think it has anything to do with the council.
    See your solicitor if you bought the lease then their actions could cost you money if you decide to sell the lease. If they want to be that awkward don't put the fence up just buy an old car and park it right up to their extension on the car parking space you paid for.
     
  13. CraigMcK

    CraigMcK Screwfix Select

    Just as a point I doubt they could complain if you parked your transit there and would potentially lose more light that way. Since I assume the parking space was there before the extension was built, so this possibility would have been known at the time by them and planning.
    As was said they have no right to a view, so that can't be used as an argument, and depending upon which way it is facing there would not be that much change in light I would not think.

    Although at the end of the day you need to live next to them, so a bit of common sense and conversation from both sides would go a long way
     
  14. manpower

    manpower New Member

    Thanks guys for the useful advice, it makes me laugh a little bit :D
    It is a good idea to split the garden across but I don't think it will work now as I know they will not want to spend one penny.

    They are being unreasonable is true, actually what I said above is only half of the story, the upper part of the story is also unfair to me but I compromised it already.

    The parking space is for the 1st floor only not allocated parking. I don't want to park the car there because I believe soon or later either I damage their extension or my car because the entrance is so tight. If to use it as part of a garden, I do want to put a fence there to have my privacy, who likes being overlooked? The document they signed before to agree me put a fence to my garden area, well, they may say "yes, we agreed the fence to be put on your 'garden' area, not the packing space", so if that is the case, I can't argue with that.

    IF they let me put the fence but only allow to move the fence a couple of feet further to my parking space, that means, I don't breach the term of the lease, if that is the case, I think I need to ask them to sign a consent or something to protect myself? How to write that letter?
    I don't want to fall out with them otherwise I may have problem selling my flat but I still need some insurance for my side as I can see that they are not very trustworthy.
     
  15. CraigMcK

    CraigMcK Screwfix Select

  16. Manpower, is that parking space allocated to flat 1, your flat? Is that 'your' parking space and your space only?

    How do you gain access to your parking space?

    Ok, armed with all the comments above, I'd say your best approach is to sit down with them and talk it through. Nice and reasonable.

    Tell them you understand their concerns about light, but you're hoping you can suggest some solutions to that. Ask them what distance from their window would be acceptable for a fence to be installed?See what they think.

    How about 6 feet? And, what's more, you'll happily put some nice plants/shrubs along 'their' side of the fence so that not only will the light levels not be affected, but they'll actually end up with a nicer outlook than they currently do - after all, looking out on a parked car can't be the best view, can it?

    Very gently - without making it sound like a 'threat' - also point out the simple fact that the space is currently a parking space, and that you might in the future like to buy a camper van, and that's where it'll be parked for much of the year - should it still be a parking space. (Modify that to suit what's 'right' for you. Ie - you might just want to say that, as a parking space, they could be looking out on any old pile of junk, or even a high-sided van...)

    All you are doing is making the point that having a nice fence there, perhaps with some soft planting, would very likely be the best option for them, and actually be an improvement over what they currently have.

    Bear in mind that they are not being totally unreasonable at the moment - if they genuinely feel their level of light will be significantly reduced by having a 6' fence situated only 4' from their window, then I can sympathise with them.

    So you may need to compromise by 'losing' another couple of feet of your parking space.

    HOWEVER, that would not be a permanent loss - you will always have the right to reinstate your parking space at any time - it's 'your' land.
     
  17. manpower

    manpower New Member

    DA, I can access from side of the property to the rear parking space and that parking space is for my own use only.

    Does that mean the freeholders can not stop me from changing it to part of the garden?
     
  18. Hi Manpower.

    Just to confirm - you access your car parking space via where you are hoping to fit the gate in your sketch?

    I cannot answer your question; it all depends on what your title deeds say. Have you read the darned thing yet?

    I can only speculate, but fear that if the title deeds say it's a "parking space", then you probably would need the permission of the freeholders to change its use. That sounds unfair, but it's a catch-all situation which would prevent you from, for example, trying to build on it!

    Any change of use of any 'allocated' area - garden, parking, access, bins, etc. - will almost certainly require their permission.

    Sorry. But I suspect - but don't know for sure - that that is the case.


    So, I suspect it'll be down to negotiation as explained above.

    If negotiation fails, use it for what it's designed - for parking the biggest and ugliest van you can...
     

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