Scaremongering or should I worry?

Discussion in 'Plumbers' Talk' started by Luke Redpath, May 8, 2015.

  1. Luke Redpath

    Luke Redpath Member

    First post here, hoping to get some reassurance. Sorry if its a bit of a long one!

    I'm in the process of getting some quotes to fit some new radiators and also re-do our downstairs shower room. I've spent a lot of time researching our options for various things like what radiators to get, how to do our shower, tanking etc. so not completely ignorant and have a fairly good idea of what we want to accomplish.

    We had a guy in from a local firm this morning and whilst on one hand he was quite detailed and thorough in surveying the shower room, he was here for over an hour and by the time he'd left had left me feeling pretty stressed with all of the potential problems he had managed to point out while he was here!

    To be fair, some of the things he said seem reasonable but the more I think about it the more I think he was scaremongering - so what do you think?

    New boiler - we had a new boiler fitted about a month ago, moved over from an old vented system to a 33kw Baxi Platinum combi. Well aware of the pros and cons of each and we had several plumbers say our pressure was good enough for a combi and it would be suitable for the house (4 bedroom semi, one bathroom and downstairs shower). There's only me, my wife and 4 year old daughter and we'd be unlikely to be using the bath and downstairs shower at the same time so I was happy with this. He started saying how Baxi don't have a good reputation and that he wouldn't have put a combi in the house and that he'd still put an electric shower in downstairs so we can still have a shower if the boiler goes wrong and we have to "wait weeks for parts". Already seeming a bit scaremongering to me. We'd already decided we wanted a thermostatic mixer shower, not a noisy electric shower.

    He looked outside and said the small area of exposed condensate pipe (about 500mm) should be lagged to prevent it freezing (fair enough, not sure why the guy who did the boiler didn't) and that the pressure relief overflow was too close to the wall (it was almost touching at the bottom).

    New radiators - we just want three new radiators to replace three old ones as they were old single panel radiators and one of them was so full of sludge that the power flush we had when the new boiler was fitted didn't shift it. They are already removed as we are having plastering done. I'd already said I would be supplying the rads (from Screwfix, with their free valve deal) and he started going on about cheap £2 valves and higher pressure from the new boiler until I mentioned they were decent Drayton valves (he then went on to say how Drayton valves keep sticking but that they weren't bad!). He asked how many weeks the chemicals had been left in the system for the power flush??? The power flush was done in a day, the day before the new boiler was fitted. I know there are chemicals designed to be left in for weeks but I was under the impression that when power flushing more powerful chemicals are used and don't need to be left in for weeks The boiler guy spent ages doing it and went round banging each radiator as he did them (that's also wrong according to the guy this morning, they should be vibrated apparently) and the water was coming out pretty clear at the end. He then started saying how it wasn't done properly and our boiler guarantee could be void.

    Now admittedly the power flush didn't clear the dining room rad and the stuff that came out of it when we removed it for plastering was still pretty black, but when we removed a newer radiator its water was pretty clear, as was the one upstairs. Seems OK to me? Surely the old rad was just too far gone, which is why we are replacing it?

    While measuring up for rads, he also found time to ask me if we had vented our now closed off chimney (we had). I also remarked how we had a few small stains on one of the upstairs chimney breasts as the vent had been kept closed - the plasterers said the PVA would seal it in and it wouldn't come through our new skim, the plumber said it would always keep coming through. No idea who to believe on that one, guess we'll find out in time. I said if it comes through, we'll just have to use a decent stain blocking primer and re-paint but no, it will come through that too according to him - we should have battened and boarded it.

    Finally, the shower room - we have an awkward shaped alcove that is 1040mm wide and not perfectly square. A bit too wide for a 1000mm tray, even after tiling. The base is a raised concrete plinth and the old gully needs excavating. We also need to have the shower pipework modified to accommodate the new mixer shower, we want a new smaller towel radiator with the pipework modified to allow room for a wall hung toilet, boxed in ready for tiling, and a new vanity unit/sink. My thinking was to use one of these wet room trays that can be cut to size and tiled, tape up all the joins to the wall and base and then tank using one of these liquid tanking kits before tiling. My father in law will be doing the tiling and he thinks the existing wall is sound enough to tile on to (its a sand/cement render with a thin plaster skim although there's a small amount of bonding that has been used to patch up where the pipework has been chased in).

    According to this guy...the skim was thin and wouldn't hold heavy tiles (I know this) and that they could "fall off and kill a child" (he actually said that). He said he wouldn't use a wet room tray as they are more prone to leaking and that he would build out the wall and use a normal tray (which I think will look silly). I also mentioned how I'd found a few shower doors that have side extension profiles that will allow us to get a 1000mm door to fit a slightly wider space - according to him these will leak. The list was endless. Finally he noted some green colouration around the bottom of the pipes on the towel rad, sink and also the front hallway radiator (when we removed all the old tiles, the water leaking from the shower had got under the tiles all the way out into the hall. We assumed this had been caused by the damp but he warned us that the water may have re-activated the lime in the concrete sub-floor which was now eating away at the copper pipes and they could start leaking at any time and that the whole hallway floor might have to come up.

    ARGH!!! I really don't know what to think. Given the endless list of of problems its easy to think he was just scaremongering and I'm now left feeling very anxious about what should have been two very straightforward jobs. He's particularly worried me about the boiler warranty and also having to have the floor dug up and pipes replaced for the radiator (we're due to have our new laminate flooring fitted in the lounge/hallway end of June).

    Got another guy coming on Monday for a quote so can get his opinion but is everything he's said likely to be true?
     
  2. FatHands

    FatHands Well-Known Member

    Hi Luke, welcome to the forum. just a thought, but if you had a boiler fitted a month ago, why not get that plumber back to finish up the other jobs?
    It sounds like he may be picking holes but don't expect a warm reply from anyone coming out to quote you when you mention that you want to get all the parts in. Saying this to a tradesmen is like garlic to a vampire!
     
  3. Luke Redpath

    Luke Redpath Member

    Thanks for the reply. To be fair, as far as the radiators are concerned, most of the plumbers I've spoken to have been happy either way with a fit only job. For the shower room, I'm not fussed either way but again most haven't been (openly anyway) bothered about me supplying some of the major parts.

    I did speak to the guy who fitted the boiler on the phone just now actually. He did re-assure me that there is no need to leave chemicals in for "weeks" when doing a power flush and that the whole point of a power flush was so you didn't have to add the chemicals, wait weeks and then flush it all (and we wouldn't have wanted to wait weeks either as our old boiler was kaput). He also said that most of the condensate pipe was run internally and only a small area of it was exposed (literally the last 500mm or so if that where it connects to the waste) and that he didn't think it would be an issue.

    He is coming over on Monday as I want to give him the chance to quote for the radiator job and look at the shower room again. He had already given me a quote for the shower room work but I was a bit concerned by the fact he thought he could get it all done in half a day when it seems easily like 2 days work to me and was worrying he would either rush the job or miss things.
     
  4. FatHands

    FatHands Well-Known Member

    hiya,
    the reason i mention the parts as it works in everyone's favour.
    the tradesmen will get the best quality parts he knows works reliably. none of us want to fit cr@p that will mean we have to come back to sort out at a later date. tradesmen want fit and forget parts (or at least as long as possible). they will also get all the parts they need for the job. so you mention having some radiators replaced. they will know of the other bits and bobs they need, or might need and ensure they have it on the day. if they don't need it, they wont (or shouldn't!) bill you and they just return it to SF or the merchants on their next trip. Yes, they will add a fee to the parts, because there is time and fuel required in collecting them, although i have had comments "i couldn't have got them for that" - in which case its win win.
    you benefit because if the parts are wrong on the day, or go faulty then the tradesmen will sort it out as part of the job. I think you will find if you supply your own parts its down to you to haggle if they do go wrong.
    glad to hear you are getting the original plumber back for a quote. let us know how it all goes
     
    PaulBlackpool likes this.
  5. Luke Redpath

    Luke Redpath Member

    To be clear, I was just going to supply the rads and valves. The rads and valves Screwfix sell seem decent to me if the reviews are anything to go by. I wouldn't be supplying anything else.

    Anyway, was this guy just scaremongering?
     
  6. FatHands

    FatHands Well-Known Member

    Ok fair enough :)

    Your concerns are relating to the installation of the boiler are they not? Didn't you clear that up when you spoke to the plumber just now?
    As for heavy tiles in a shower area, personally i would use hardibacker board which i think says something like 50kg per sqm and a good quality cement based adhesive and grout.
     
  7. Luke Redpath

    Luke Redpath Member

    Actually my main concern was about whether the power flush was done correctly and the pipes under the concrete floor, although the guy this morning seemed to have something negative to say about everything.

    Is some blue/green discolouration around the bottom of the radiator pipe in the hallway more likely to just be from being in contact from water that had got under the tiles (its all dried out now) or is what he was saying about the concrete eating away at them true? I suppose we will have a better idea when the work starts as the towel radiator pipe work needs modifying anyway so when they dig out the concrete we can see what the pipes are like for that.

    I trust my father in law - an experienced tiler - to use the right grout and adhesives for the shower. I had originally planned to hack out the render and re-board it but he says its really not necessary and that the existing render would be fine. We weren't planning on getting heavy tiles anyway and they aren't going to be big - its only a small room.

    Any views on whether we can use one of those wet room trays on top of our existing raised concrete plinth, once the old gully has been excavated? I was thinking something like this:

    http://www.tradewetrooms.com/jackob...ign=Products&gclid=CK_R-5SessUCFYnKtAodywIAiQ

    It can be cut to fit the existing base (1040x700) perfectly and can be tiled onto directly.
     
  8. tom.plum

    tom.plum Screwfix Select

    one word answer, yes,( oh bugger i used more than one word):oops:
     
  9. Luke Redpath

    Luke Redpath Member

    Thanks. My wife was actually quite cross afterwards when we discussed it and I don't think she wants him to come back even if he gives us a good quote! Not sure I do either really.

    On one hand it would have been simpler to just go with the guy who did our boiler and he's already given me a good price, but I'm convinced he's underestimated the work involved. He did a good job with the boiler but you could tell he'd underestimated the time it would take - he ended up working late the second day, seemed a bit rushed and had to come back the next day to remove the old boiler and fix an air lock in the pump. Been fine since though.

    This is what I think is involved for the first fix on our shower room and I'd say its easily 2 days work at least:

    * Excavate old shower gully from raised concrete base, fit new gully to fit new shower tray
    * Modify shower pipe work (buried in wall) to accommodate new thermostatic mixer shower
    * Making good of above
    * Remove old sink, towel radiator and toilet
    * Replace isolation valves on sink
    * Fit wall hung toilet unit (frame + cistern) and box in ready for tiling
    * Modify pipe work for towel radiator so it comes straight up (old radiator pipework has angled bends and will get in the way of boxing in toilet)

    He reckoned it would take him half a day (but he later admitted he'd forgotten about the shower gully). No chance, surely?
     
  10. Hi Luke.

    That plumber was a complete tosseur and was probably just running on an ego trip, showing all the things a 'pro' like him can pick up on. And much of it was bar locks.

    You have chosen a combi boiler, and you fully understood the pros and cons. As you know, it won't cope with 2 taps running simultaneously, but you will find in practice that that's a rare occurrence. And the shower from a 33kW combi will be superb. This twit was suggesting an electric shower?! OMG. (By the way, he meant an 'instant' electric shower - it doesn't make a noise, but then it doesn't make much hot water either... They are hellish.) And if he is really suggesting you fit and have to live with a pitiful leccy shower for the odd occasion the boiler might not work, then he's a complete twit. That is really poor judgement..

    There are two ways to 'try' and clean an old system - one is to dose up the systems with chemicals and leave it running for a few weeks, and t'other is to force chemicals around the system as you agitate each rad in turn. You fitter chose the latter option.

    With really sludged systems, you can find that some rads are sooo blocked they simply cannot be cleaned - the sludge is too well packed. These rads need replacing - which you are doing. (On that note, try fitting rads with a greater rated output - eg ones with connectors, or double-panel etc. The reason is that you'll get the same output from them after you've turned your boiler's output down, and the cooler a condensing boiler runs, the more efficient it will be.)

    So, on these points - the guy is an ar**.


    Condensate pipe should be lagged - fair enough. PRV pipe too close to the wall? So bludy what - it will only discharge when your boiler is in trouble, so hardly going to hurt your wall. He's a pedantic twit.

    SF rads are very good and great value, and Drayton valves are very decent. Your plumber is a twit.

    If your closed-off chimney is now covered from rain and is also vented to keep it dry, and stains that come through should be blockable with proper stain block. He is scaremongering. And a twit.

    Finally the shower room. Can't really say too much about this, as it's not something I have much experience with. However, my personal preference would be to go for a proper solid tray and then build out the wall the necessary 40mm to make it the correct width for the tray. So I agree with him there - even tho' he is still a twit.

    A rendered wall with a thin skim should be able to hold tiles, provided the skim is as well adhered as it should be. But I guess pro tilers on here will recommend the best approach here.

    If your buried pipes are ok after x number of years, they should continue to be ok. Ie - nothing new should have happened to them - if they leak now, they were always going to do so.



    Did I mention the guy is a twit?

    BUT - still get a quote from him 'cos he could still be a good worker :).​
     
    FatHands and Plumberbish like this.
  11. Luke Redpath

    Luke Redpath Member

    Thank you for the excellent and reassuring reply.

    I thought a decent thermostatic shower would be much nicer too and much nicer looking than a big electric shower too.

    The chimney with the stains upstairs was already blocked off when we moved in and was vented but the previous owners kept the hit and miss vents closed. It is now fully ventilated again. The last remaining chimney in use, I blocked up - I've actually had a false wall built around it to conceal TV cables and a wall mount but I blocked the opening up with some hardboard and left a letter box sized opening. The false wall is not completely sealed either due to cable exit slots etc. so there should be some airflow. I had the chimney swept before doing this and had all 4 pots closed with vented cowls.

    The plasterer seemed confident the PVA would seal the light stains in but as you say if not, nothing some decent stain blocker (Zinsser maybe) can't sort.

    The pipes in the concrete floor are probably as old as the extension itself, 25 years? I take it the green stains are just the result of contact with the water from the leaking shower? Once we lifted the tiles the floor and walls had dried out within a few days so I'm guessing the water was just on the surface beneath the tiles.

    My father in law seemed to think the walls were fine and he's the experienced professional.

    Out of interest, why would you lot for building out the wall over a wet room preformed tray that has been tiled?
     
  12. Luke Redpath

    Luke Redpath Member

    I'll try and post some photos of the pipes tomorrow. Hopefully the other plumber coming on Monday doesn't spend an hour criticising everything too!
     
  13. Hi Luke.

    Obviously I cannot guarantee your buried pipes are ok - I simply can't tell. However, a bit of green stain when they became wet is no surprise; it's yer basik chemistry.

    Shower tray choice - is your choice. Obviously these wetroom trays are perfectly ok, so go for it if you want.

    It's only a personal choice for me - I chust like the idea of a solid, moulded tray underfoot wot cannot develop a joint fault or nuffink.

    Go for what you are happier with.
     
  14. G&W Plumbing & Heating

    G&W Plumbing & Heating Active Member

    Ok pal,

    yes the condense should be oversized or lagged.
    The power flush should of been done with the rads you where going to change taken out & a loop of poly in its place, you also should change the rad valves really as they block, there should be no sludge in the system after, then inhibitor needs to be replaced after every drain down.
    The wet room, don't use a pre-formed tray, use an ACO wet room channel gully, set it in the floor & use CT1 for every joint on trap & seals, gun the concrete plynth up so floor is level, then Mark your wet area & gun up & screed a fall of 1:40 to the gully, latex whole floor & self level, prime, tape & tank wet area.
    Nothing wrong with your boiler or its served application.
    Copper pipes need protection from lime corrosion when wet or dry! This is with bitumen, red oxide, denso or foam lagging which also allows expansion, joints/fittings are a massive no under solid floors and is a total school boy error,
     
  15. Luke Redpath

    Luke Redpath Member

    Thanks for your reply. We don't want a wet room, just a normal shower enclosure. The use of a wet room tray is to work around the size of the alcove without building out the wall, nothing more. If we had a standard width alcove we would just use a standard tray.

    Condensate pipe is 22mm I think. Lagging it is not a big deal, I can do that if necessary.

    Looking the pipe work running to the shower, it appears to be encased in foam lagging where it enters the concrete base. It's also protected inside the wall. Hopefully that means the pipe work in the floor is also suitably protected. It does look more likely that the blue staining is due to exposure to water from leaking shower.

    We had no plan to replace rads when the power flush was done. It was only after we realised the radiator was still really sludged up and needed replacing.

    As well as three rads, I also intend to replace all the TRVs and possibly lock shields too as they are ancient and as the system is going to be drained anyway seems a no brainer.
     
  16. G&W Plumbing & Heating

    G&W Plumbing & Heating Active Member

    The stain is not from a leak, Copper does not react with water or it would be a bad idea to use it as a pipe for it, the blue is likely flux residue, is there a soldered fitting above it? It's not a wet room just a walk in shower, you can get glass cut to size & frosted for every situation, that what I do
     
  17. Luke Redpath

    Luke Redpath Member

    I know it's not a wet room, that's what I said.

    A bespoke shower door is out of budget but we can get a 1000mm door to fit with an extension profile. The issue is getting the base to fit so a preformed tray cut to size and tiled seems ideal.

    No soldered joints above the pipes.
     
  18. G&W Plumbing & Heating

    G&W Plumbing & Heating Active Member

    Looks like you got it sorted pal, good luck
     
  19. Luke Redpath

    Luke Redpath Member

    A few photos here.

    Hallway radiator pipe . Only the left tail is affected.
    image.jpg

    Towel rail and sink/shower pipe work:
    image.jpg

    image.jpg

    Is this "verdigris"? Just reading it can be caused by emulsion paint?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
  20. Luke Redpath

    Luke Redpath Member

    It looks like it's on some parts of the pipe that aren't even in contact with the concrete so hopefully not a lime issue?
     

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