Hi all Been round at a friends today and they've recently moved to a new house (not new build) As usual, long list of work that needs doing but as and when funds allow One annoying issue is the family bathroom, looks like fully refitted only few years ago, all clean and shiny and modern fittings but, really poor pressure from the shower Set up is; Ancient floor standing boiler in kitchen, but plenty of hot water, both rads and domestic Emersion tank used for hot storage in upstairs bedroom 2 x linked cold water tanks in loft with F&E tank Salamander pump RSP75 fitted under bath supplying bath taps and large shower head via bath tap diverter Hot water from emersion comes out top of tank via a flange (couldn't say what type) then runs under floor to pump, under bath - approx. 6 mtr Cold water comes down from loft directly to pump under bath I'm only a diy'er but suspect that this install is wrong as the pump will be "sucking" the hot water 6mtr from the emersion, instead of pumping the water. I reckon that the pump should be at the base of the emersion tank, then pumping the hot and cold to the bath\shower If moving the pump to the emersion tank should theoretically improve flow and pressure, the next problem is then getting the pumped supply to bathroom. Bathroom floor is either Amtico or similar, individual planks that are bonded to floor so cant be removed Should it work if a new cold supply from tank in loft is run to pump (easy as its in airing cupboard) then both hot & cold pumped up to loft, approx. 6mtr across loft, down through ceiling, run in 15mm chrome pipe exposed, down and through bath edge to pump. Shower is exposed chrome Victorian style so 2 extra chrome pipes will look fine Know that some things are impossible to diagnose on a forum and sorry for the long post, just wanted to add plenty of detail. Any guesses though if this should improve things and is the pump currently sited incorrectly - many thanks
Hi Dave. From what I understand, these twin pumps are pretty much designed to be fitted under baths, so well away from the hot cylinder. After all, that's likely the only place where you'll find the hot and cold pipes together. So I doubt very much that that is the problem. Question - when they run their shower, does the pump actually fire up?! If it does, then it's working - end of. And they should have a bludy good shower - endski offski too. If the pump is running and the shower force is still pants, then it could be down to flow restrictors having not been removed from the bath/shower mixer (the showerhead itself sounds ok being 'large') - many of these mixers are designed for mains pressure like from combi systems or 'megaflos', so 3 bar and above. The salamander is Chust over 2 bar, so possibly best suited to an 'unrestricted' tap? What make and model is the bath/shower mixer? Look up on t'net the installation instructions and see what it says about setting up the tap for different pressures. Anyways, yer logik re 'sucking' and 'pushing' is misguided, I believe - it don't really matter where you fit the pump (But I could be wrong...)
Thanks DA for the reply and thoughts I could be well wrong on the sucking and pushing theory I agree, just stuff I've read but, as an amateur, just don't know what is correct Anyway, the mystery now deepens....... Had this afternoon off so the two of us did some amateur plumbing diagnostics ! As usual, no branding on bath, taps, shower etc Pump is a salamander but I posted the wrong model. Its actually a bigger beast - RHP 100 TWIN - MAX 3 bar Pump fires up but only intermittently. Even with pump running, no big change in flow through taps or shower though. Very poor with or without pump We turned off iso's to pump and disconnected hot and cold feeds, both 22mm Measured flow into a large paint bucket and approx. 15ltr per minute, both hot and cold (individually measured) M I state minimum of 10lt per minute so should be fine. Pump specs work out that 15lt per min should give around 2.7 bar (approx.) Then looked at pump and noticed partially melted section of pcb box that sits on top of pump, don't look good Removed cover and capacitor has burnt out, melted case and insulation off 3 wires that connect to it Ok we can get a capacitor either from Salamander or same spec from elsewhere, crimp and heat shrink new wires Then bypassed pump by connecting "in and out" hoses with 22mm couplers Ok no pump obviously but considering the 15lt per minute, expected a fair flow through the taps (not so much through the shower as water has to go uphill to shower head) Just a dribble out mixer tap set either on full cold, full hot or blend. So either a blockage in pipes from pump to taps, unlikely as all pipework looks new and replaced during bathroom fit. Or a fault with the diverter valve ? To complicate things, its a P shape bath with taps fitting along wall edge, access from underneath impossible. Cant see a similar model on SF but basically just 2 knobs on bath edge - 1 is the diverter, other is temp blend. The actual workings must be sitting under the bath, with no access That's as far as we got as home was calling for me. Seems a big problem for my mate and his wallet is gonna get spanked for sure
Yes, you'd expect a reasonable flow with that kind of supply, although you need to bear in mind that 'flow' and pressure are different things. That 15 lpm (pretty nifty) will soon drop off if you lift the hose end upski - that will give you a better idea of what the 'flow' is really like. Sounds a bit a* over t*, but it sounds as tho' what they have is a 'high pressure' bath mixer being driven by a pump to provide that high pressure... I'm not surprised, then, that the flow from the taps was very poor without the pump fitted - it'll be designed for 'high' pressure, at least 1 bar I bet. Anyhoo, if you can't get to that mixer, then they're stuck with it. Chances are that it'll all work fine when that pump is fixed, and if you reckon it can be repaired as you suggest, then it'll be a cheap fix for them - and a pint for you.
Hi DA Really cant get my head around the relationship between flow and pressure - need to read up on fluid dynamics I believe We were pleasantly surprised by the good flow rate to the pump, big old pump and it all looks no more than 2-3 years old so what comes out of the taps and shower is a disappointment Pump sounds like it is running, although intermittent. Spade connectors have been damaged by heat and also terminals on capacitor. Neither of us have the knowledge to test the pcb but its obvious the capacitor is knackered. This is separate from the board and easy to change, with new spades and wire crimped on to existing wiring (after chopping off damaged section) Only have very basic understanding of electronics but believe the capacitor helps to kick start the motor, and as its mortally wounded, this "may" explain the 50\50 start up of the pump. Still only think that the pump is part of the problem as now we've bypassed pump, flow out the taps is terrible, yet 15lt per minute up to pump ? Thanks for continued interest and input
'Flow' is the amount of water, a bit like current (in amps) is the actual leccy stuff that's flowing through a wire. 'Pressure' is the force behind it pushing it along, like wot voltage is in leccy world. They are very different things, although they can be connected - ie if you double the water pressure through a fixed size pipe, you will also double the flow. It's a watery ohms law. That pipe going to the pump has a lot of 'flow' because it's a large pipe and is coming pretty much directly from the storage tank above. However, you could stop that mighty flow with chust yer tongue. Ie - it has very little pressure (force) behind it. The mixer tap your friend has is restrictive, probably through having a small ceramic cartridge in it - a tiny wee hole. Try and pass that mighty flow through a wee hole like that and suddenly the water volume disappears - 'cos there's little pressure behind it. Or raise that hose end up to where a shower head will be fitted, and I reckon you'll find the flow will halve, or more. But, raise that cold tank upwards a couple of metres - or fit a pump - to increase the pressure, and you'll get your flow back. If it's a large cylindrical capacitor, then it's likely to be as you suspect - it directly affects the motor's operation ( I forget how...). Possibly the motor wasn't even spinning properly at all, but just vibrating back and forth - lots of noise, but no action (a bit like Chippie...). If it's a flat circular capacitor, then it's likely chust for interference suppression. Anyhoo, keep us posted.
Well for anyone that's following this post or stayed awake during it (apart from me and DA ) here's another update; Me and my mate spend a couple of hours this evening and removed bath/shower tap diverter. As a P shaped bath and tap mounted along the long wall side, it was kinda fun ! Luckily the design is that the body of the tap and diverter, (one unit) sits under the bath edge and secures on top edge with 2 chrome rings, so just tap head and diverter head is showing. We removed heads, tied string around the spindles, loosened chrome rings and lowered tap body to floor. Luckily again, all pipework in pushfit so easy to demount at joints and with some flex in the pipes, we could pull the tap body out from under the bath To recap; All pipework is plastic 22mm, pump hoses 22mm 15ltr per minute flow from hot and same from cold up to pump Took off pump hoses and all pipework and flushed through, including in-line pump filters. All clean, no muck or sediment Diverter connects to shower and bath filler via two, 1 mtr flexi hoses. Again flushed these through and clean Connected tap body direct to hot and cold supply (so no pump and no additional pipe work) Removed flexis to bath filler and shower Turned water back on and again just a dribble coming out of tap body - 15ltr per min going in but a dribble coming out Removed non return valves from tap body and no improvement No flow restrictors fitted anywhere Stripped down tap body, removed tap spindle, thermostat cartridge and all, stripped down diverter valve, (essentially a large ceramic disk)no muck or sludge anywhere but washed all items just in case and blasted tap body with de scaler and water jet. All squeaky clean, reassembled Connected again direct to hot and cold and still just a dribble coming out tap body Its a mystery to us. Can blow through tap and air comes out, switch diverter valve and air comes out alternate openings Have ordered a new capacitor from Salamander and is being sent out free of charge, great customer service So plenty of flow / pressure going to pump. All pipework 22mm and totally clean. The restriction or blockage must be in the tap body, possibly during the casting of the metal Out of ideas now, any offers, DA or anyone else fancy the challenge................... Not a totally lost evening, my mate treated me to couple beers, dinner out and nice bottle of red - all on a school night as well
No there isn't. Plenty of flow / pressure. Flow, yes. Pressure, no. Have I not taught you anyfink... tsk tsk That mixer is almost certainly designed for high pressure applications, 1 bar and above I'd bet. And it's working fine. When you repair the pump, it'll all be goooood. And you'll have more beers. (Any chance of a photo of the bath/shower mixer? If we can identify it, we may be able to point to some specs.)
Hi again DA and many thanks for your continued interest in this post No offence meant but any other takers who would like to add their tuppence worth.....? Not even DNR, and he usually comments on nearly every post Sorry DA, I did forget to say thanks for my lesson in fluid dynamics in post 6. Have read it but not fully digested and understood but will read again As soon as capacitor arrives I can fit and test pump again. Annoyingly I can buy a 10 m/f capacitor locally, Maplins for instance but, ones I've looked at are all too big and wont fit in case on top of pump. Need to crimp on new wires to replace damaged sections so was suggested to me that I could just extend wires and fit capacitor remotely from pump. Yep of course would work but seems a bodge so gonna wait couple of days for one to arrive from Salamander Will update again when we get somewhere Looks like me, my mate (Allan) and Mr DA are gonna see this thing through to the end ........... Please don't leave us DA........pleeeese don't Will even invite you round for a beer and a shower when the thing is working again (yeah, yeah I know you live a long way away, right at the top of the country innit)
Just forgot, have taken photos and will post when home but in meantime, no ideas on make of valve but its identical to this one; http://www.islandbathrooms.co.uk/product/SANEUX-COS-CO014 So tap and diverter mechanism sit under bath with just tap and diverter knob on show Lucky really as fixed from above bath edge so removable (taps along long wall edge, P shape bath)
Cough - "minimum water pressure 1 bar"... And your mighty 15lpm is being delivered at probably around 0.2bar. Anyhoo, looking forward to coming round for 'a shower and a beer'; that's, er, a combination I haven't been offered for a while... Giving Chippie ideas
Good evening DA and welcome to our daily catch up (makes a change from tomato ) Anyway, that's enough of my sauce...... But I bet you relish my next instalment ................. I'm ok on the more mechanical side of plumbing but not so good on the facts and figures and physics of it all, flow rates, pressure, etc (even with your lessons) Did read that, 1 bar min pressure at tap required but if I've got 15lpm hot and slightly more on the cold, are these figures combined to give over 30lpm which is available to the pump ? Spec on the pump reads - 10lpm @ 2.8 bar - 20lpm @ 2.55 bar - MAX 3.0 BAR This is where a little knowledge is dangerous (and annoying) Don't really understand what these figures actually relate to My point is that the water, combined hot and cold, is first boosted by the pump, then sent to the tap. Surely this would increase flow and pressure, resulting in min 1 bar ? I just don't know Although I'm replacing the motor start capacitor, the pump has been working intermittently. The spade connectors, terminals and wires have over heated and are damaged so I reckon making poor contact resulting in intermittent start up. Pump is under bath so easy to tell when its running. When running (or so we think) the flow out taps or shower doesn't seem to be boosted Back to the other important topic of a beer and a back rub (whilst in the shower) 2 issues spring to mind; 1. We haven't solved the issue just yet so don't start packing your overnight bag 2. The thought of Mr Chips joining us terrifies me (going on his avatar alone) plus he hasn't contributed to this thread. Sorry Chips
Hi Dave - soz, only chust seen your latest post. Chust having a look through that pump's specs - first thing I notice is that the pump mustn't be located more than 4 metres from the hot cylinder. Do you know if it is? (Also worth checking the list of "Don'ts" on the installation sheet: http://www.salamanderpumps.co.uk/Me...on_guidelines_oct2011_issue14 rhp_esp_rsp.pdf Things like the tightening of the couplers (finger-tight + quarter-turn - no spanners!), not bending them more than 35o, not using jointing compound, etc). "Motor type: Capacitor start and run induction type" - I suspect your pump motor might have been vibrating ("humming") rather than actually spinning when you heard it 'running', so no great surprise there was no water flow. The specs you mention, I suspect it means that if you open yer taps so's you are getting a 10lpm flow out of them, then the pump will deliver that flow rate at a pressure of 2.8bar. If you open yer taps more so's the flow doubles to 20lpm (that's serious flow - well over what most kitchen mains cold taps deliver), then the delivery pressure will drop slightly to 2.55bar (still pretty awesome). That's all WELL in excess of what the bath/shower mixer will require. (Without the pump, your are getting 10lpm at around 0.2bar out them pipes...) Anyhoo - once it is running, yer mate will have an awesome shower. And I'll be there to lather his back. Tell him it's all part of the Salamander service...
Hi DA, did say would pop some pics on here for, er, well ...... You I guess ? Seeing as it's only me and you on this thread If you're really at a loose end tonight, nothing on the telly worth watching and you feel like being gently lulled to sleep by my inane ramblings and pics, then go ahead, be my guest, just don't pack ur overnight bag just yet Ps. Shower gel or good old fashioned bar of soap do you prefer ?
I'm not very good at uploading pics and they've come out a bit all over the place, but anyway, a brief explanation to the photos starting with 1st post.......Er DA.......you still with me DA .........PLEASE SAY YES...............................X Complete valve showing hot\cold inlets (rhs) and temp blend with diverter control on left. All pipes 22mm poly. Silver flexis, 1 to bath filler, other to shower rail Non return valves as fitted, no flow restrictors fitted anywhere Fully stripped down and cleaned / descaled, although was dirtier on outside valve body than inside Reassembled and flow through flexi to shower, hot and cold on full, can definitely p*ss faster than this no problems This was a spare bath tap mate had, connected to supply and flows lovely, filled 10ltr bucket in about 20 seconds Burnt out capacitor and associated wiring POST 16 (not sure what 15 was about) Valve body showing diverter on left. Exit holes for water (1 for bath, 1 for shower) are 8.5mm diameter, measured with HSS drill bit New wires and spade connectors crimped with heat shrink, just waiting still on new capacitor
Wow! At last an exciting thread on here! cough I am quite sure that there are many viewings of this thread, if not actual replies... Anyhoo - great work. That's gonna be one lucky capacitor - what a home. And as for soap vs gel - it all depends on who's applying it. That impressive flow - it's out of both flexis, yeah? No chance at all that the flexis have 'issues' internally? I suspect not, since you've almost certainly found the cause of the problem. Can't wait for the next instalment
Well DA, just for you, (or anyone else that may be vaguely interested - doubt it though) here is the "next instalment".....................more problems though Tracked down the local supplier of bath, shower, taps, etc who originally supplied the items. Was some detective work as since installing he's changed businesses and opened up under a new name. Good guy though, doesn't remember supplying the items and mate doesn't have any paperwork as was fitted before he moved in. Even so he was very helpful and after explaining everything, offered to supply a new tap diverter free - brilliant customer service and a nice guy Fitted new tap and immediately massive improvement in flow and pressure (now know these 2 things are different though) even with pump off Pump now repaired (new capacitor, connectors and cables) pump kicks in immediately, boosting flow and pressure ? (I assume) so now a decent shower and bath fill time I noticed though that pump getting very hot, after 4/5 mins run time was too hot to touch so unplugged pump Called Salamander technical, ran through install with them and they said " pumps do get very hot, yes too hot to touch is usual and ok. We have lots of similar enquires but just ensure good air flow, no blocked pump vents and all is ok" I wasn't convinced, should any motor casing get that hot after 5 minutes ? Let pump run again and now after 7 ish mins, thermal cut out kicks in and stops pump - pump is literally red hot by now, cant be right Gonna call Salamander again....My mate now owes me BIG time So DA, as I said previously, don't pack ur overnight bag just yet, we still have some way to go on this saga
You've been busy It would have been interesting to have seen how well the pump worked with the old tap - can you put it back on chust for a trial for me? No? Ok then... Rats - chust when you thought you'd sorted the pump, it starts to fry... No idea what would cause that, I'm afraid. What do Salamander suggest?
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