What insurance do I need?

Discussion in 'Carpenters' Talk' started by fobos, Sep 19, 2016.

  1. fobos

    fobos Member

    I have spoken to a family friend who is an insurance broker. I have found out that Professional Liability is only needed is you design something. It covers you if the design fails.

    My work entails following the designs of architects. If any steel is needed that is designed by an engineer.

    In short I don't need Professional Liability and so won't be getting it.

    Cheers, Andrew
     
  2. sospan

    sospan Screwfix Select

    Well it is up to you, many people will read your post and shake their heads as it is not just what you think it is. Personally the £50 element in my insurance is well worth it.
     
  3. fobos

    fobos Member

    what is it then?
     
  4. fobos

    fobos Member

    sorry guys my earlier post had a typo. It should have read Professional Indemnity not Professional Liability.

    It should have read as follows;


    I have spoken to a family friend who is an insurance broker. I have found out that Professional Indemnity is only needed is you design something. It covers you if the design fails.

    My work entails following the designs of architects. If any steel is needed that is designed by an engineer.

    In short I don't need Professional Indemnity and so won't be getting it.

    Cheers, Andrew
     
  5. sospan

    sospan Screwfix Select

    Professional indemnity also covers any changes, decisions or advice you or any subcontractor makes.
     
  6. Mr Rusty

    Mr Rusty Screwfix Select

    Exactly. Design isn't just about what the architect or SE provides. They most likely won't specify every single adhesive, fixing, and detail. It is expected that contractors make choices and decisions with reasonable skill and care, and PI covers you if you make an honest wrong choice or decision, which results in a claim for damages. It won't cover you for negligence. Even choosing between 2 different length nails is a design decision.
     
  7. sospan

    sospan Screwfix Select

    And of course the customers only comeback is on the main contractor / builder so if a sub contractor (plumber, electrician) is brought on site it is the contractor not the subby is initially accountable for liability. it would have to be the contractors PI company that would have to go after the subby but it would be difficult to prove because all the subby would have to say - "the boss told me to do it"

    Even on this site we are playing with fire a bit because of the advice we provide - How many times is there a forum question "Can I knock down this wall ...."
     
  8. Mr Rusty

    Mr Rusty Screwfix Select

    Not necessarily. We were subbys to the MEP sub contractor for a main contractor. Without going in to detail, we had to buy a piece of specialist equipment from Europe to include as part of our package - similar to the kit we supply, but different enough that we had to rely on the suppliers design being correct. We bought in good faith against a specification. The piece of equipment, it turned out, was badly designed and although had the correct certifications, was deemed unfit for purpose by the end user after it caught fire. As we had supplied it in good faith it was our PI that ultimately picked it up and paid out, and are now contemplating recovery from the european supplier. What it did for our premiums is another matter........
     
  9. sospan

    sospan Screwfix Select

    Isn't it what I said / meant ? as the supplier/ specifier / contractor your PI picks up the tab. Then its down to your PI company to reclaim the costs from the manufacturer or subby ?

    Where it gets difficult is when the subby is told to do something by the site owner, objects and is then overruled by the site owner
     
  10. Mr Rusty

    Mr Rusty Screwfix Select

    Y pretty much. I was just making the point that the main contractors PI doesn't get involved at all. It cascaded straight down to us. It was our supply. Our decision to commission from that supplier and our PI.

    It has been a rule of mine when there is a problem that isn't directly mine/ours to never suggest a solution. If someone says "great we'll do that" you've just made a design decision that could hang you.
     
  11. chippie244

    chippie244 Super Member

    For the tiny amount it costs I wouldn't even think about not having it.
     
  12. sospan

    sospan Screwfix Select

    :) yep and the usual response - "your idea you do it !" or later on "Who's bright idea was that ...." Sometimes it is best to keep quiet :oops:

    of course one thing people forget about with commercial insurance - competency. If people take on work they are not qualified to do then in the event of an issue most insurance companies will refuse a claim if they can prove lack of competency. A friend had an issue with his property where the guy next door was renovating houses for profit with no real building or business experience and just got people in to do jobs, took out the chimney and shared stack ended up smashing through and alcove into my mates house. His insurance company refused to pay, the guy didn't have the funds to put the damage right and it came down to my mates house and contents insurance to fix it. It ended up a complete mess - BC slapped a prohibition order on the property and the mortgage company got involved because my mates insurance company started suing the guy for costs and took a charge of the property to stop him selling the property or going under
     
  13. sospan

    sospan Screwfix Select

    Yep as I mentioned above - as part of my "all in" package it was £50 - less than a £1 a week and is also Tax deductible!
     
  14. Rob_bv

    Rob_bv Active Member

    If you're doing a loft conversion, I'd recommend you consider contract works insurance (it is somtimes included with, or is an optional extra with PLI). Are you going to be hiring in tools and plant? If so you'll want to make sure you have a hired-in plant insurance in place too.
     
  15. chippie244

    chippie244 Super Member

    My whole package was something over £100 for £5 000 000 PLI and the rest chucked in.
     
  16. SWBUILDERS

    SWBUILDERS Active Member

    Sorry mate but prof indemnity is in the the name a professional is deemed as a member of a professional body I.e chartered architect, SE, surveyor, and hence there indemnity insurance is relevant to the contract value of whatever they are designing, this insurance for even medium sized architectural practices can be upwards of 10k a year, what you need to protect yourself from company's going bust on you and if customers sue you is contractors all risk insurance however this is 1k + a year depending on what size contracts your undertaking, the basic level of cover to allow to work on site is PL and if your a labour only subcontractor then the onus is on the main contractor anyway, if the op has employees even an apprentice he will also need employers liability that increases the premium considerably
     
  17. Mr Rusty

    Mr Rusty Screwfix Select

    OP. Bottom line. Get a bit of PI if you can. It's worth it.
     
  18. sospan

    sospan Screwfix Select

    What nonsense a lot of builders contractors, electricians, gas fitters etc are all members of professional bodies
     
  19. SWBUILDERS

    SWBUILDERS Active Member

    ok I should have said professional bodies related to the design of buildings or specifications, if a SE designs a RSJ and as a result the bending moment calcs were wrong and the beam fails that is where his/her indemnity indurance will be relavant, or if a surveyer specs a material that is not fit for purpose, or an architect designs a room that dose not meet the clients needs this insurance is not for trades men and certainly wouldn't expect any cover for a £1 a week to pay out what could you possibly expect it to cover? What are you designing for your customers? The only way I would ever think about this insurance is if I took on a design and build instead of traditional contract.
     
  20. chippie244

    chippie244 Super Member

    I think you are looking at a very narrow remit, I design, build and fit.
     

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