Externally mounted Electric meter box - Consumer unit

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by DannyDoLittle, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    I am not disagreeing with you, Col. All I am saying is that we, you and I, would be wasting our breath arguing with them because they only know their side and are ignorant of the truth.
     
  2. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    True dat fella.
     
  3. c0d3r

    c0d3r Member


    This is right, in that UK Law & regulations as I expect in all countries, is top dog, as these ultimately get settled in courts of sorts, so any additional rules, requirements, etc are what a business introduces to make safe/perform as expected their product or service, if its not something else.

    You'll see this in other walks of life, like getting products fixed under warranty, a company might only give a one year warranty and say its company policy to not fix it after a year, but UK (EU) law says some products must be warranted for longer periods (2yrs or 5yrs is common) and clearly layout the course of action to be carried out in certain timescales.

    Perhaps understanding the reasons why such requirements exist with whatever may shed more light, perhaps its just manufacturers/service providers being over cautious or they have discovered something affects the operation in some way. Its not the first time, someone high up in a business has made a mistake and then this has filtered down to be common knowledge in that field, it goes on with medicine, law, computing and elsewhere. Its also not uncommon for business practices ie business to business contracts & practices to become muddled up with business to consumer contracts & practices as people move from one dept to another or company to company, but basically in a B2B situ, if a law or regulation doesnt exist, then whatever is in the contract goes, may the best law firm win, but with B2C theres more laws and regulations which have to be adhered to, to ensure the safety of the public, so a business could introduce terms into a contract which directly contradict UK Law or regulations, so those terms would be struck out of the contract in a court. These terms become useless hyperbole.

    The fact so many different variations of supplying electricity to property exist around the world, shows there are ultimately many opinion's as scientific tests are just a method & procedures to reproduce consistent results. As Thomas Pynchon once said, "you dont have to worry about the answer, if they dont ask the right question" which is very true.

    I'm also reminded of a place in South America which has a consistent number of lightening strikes so the place is setup to fire from rockets a wire up into the clouds in a bid to consistently trigger lightening strikes and guess what, they cant always get the lightening to run down the wire, the charge in the cloud chooses its own route to earth even when an earth wire which is arguably the shortest route according to experts exists. Makes you think doesnt it!
     
  4. JP.

    JP. Screwfix Select

    Never seen a switch fuse fitted in intakes in Hampstead - and have seen loads of intakes in said.

    However on a conversion from house to flats (in Hampstead many years ago) we had a 3 phase supply run in and after liaising with DNO, at intake position we ran a separate switch fuse per flat off of the cab supplied by the DNO. If I remember correctly (it was quite some time ago) the cab had 80 amp cutouts and the switch fuses were 60 amps (yes even with discrimination I know) but that is all logical. On every standard rewire though, never once have I been requested to fit a switch fuse by the DNO/Meter supplier and never have been refused a connect up. This is when the DNO were the REC though so maybe different nowadays - never had a refusal on any recent rewires though. Sometimes switch fuses are required, but it seems not within the parameters of the topic.
     
  5. JP.

    JP. Screwfix Select

  6. JP.

    JP. Screwfix Select

    No switch fuse evident in scenario shown above..:D

    ''Note: This diagram is illustrative only – it does not show all possible scenarios. Actual installation practice and equipment connections may differ. The diagram must not be taken as a definitive wiring diagram for any installation''
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
  7. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Yes you are right to suggest it could be done under contract law but I don't really see how in reality it could be policed. I note that in @leesparkykent (hi mate) dcusa gumph there is a bespoke connection agreement that could be cut 'n' pasted but the nearest it gets to the three meter rule is a mention of the cut out...

    (b) Connection Point(s): either
    (i) where connection is provided from the Company’s final cut-out fuse, isolator, switch, metering switch fuse or metering circuit breaker, unless otherwise stated in this Bespoke Connection Agreement the Connection Points are the outgoing terminals of the Company’s final cut-out fuse, isolator, switch, metering switch fuse or metering circuit breaker, or
    (ii) where the Company’s electric lines connect directly to a Customer’s intake isolator, switch, metering switch fuse or metering circuit breaker, unless otherwise stated in this Bespoke Connection Agreement the Connection Points are the incoming terminals of the Customer’s intake isolator, switch, metering switch fuse or metering circuit breaker, and, for the avoidance of doubt, the Connection Points may be remote from the
    Customer’s Installation where third party electric lines and/or electric plant provide
    the intermediate electrical connection from the Company’s Distribution System to the
    Customer’s Installation.


    https://www.dcusa.co.uk/DCUSA Document Public Version/Schedule 2C v7.6.pdf

    I'm with BG who do not impose a three meter rule under the performance of their t's and c's.
     
  8. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Does it say anything about meter tails >3m mate?
     
  9. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    I go away for the summer and return to see you are still having this pointless debate.
     
  10. c0d3r

    c0d3r Member

    Does it have to be policed proactively or will retrospectively after an incident has occurred be enough?
     
  11. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Huh?
     
  12. JP.

    JP. Screwfix Select

    Oh right over 3 meters Mr C - so the discussion is about if the tails are longer then 3 meters (4 meters in some cases) then a switch fuse must be fitted in all instances?
     
  13. c0d3r

    c0d3r Member

    Say a fire occurs, fire investigators will try to establish the cause, and although we might hear in the news it was "just an electrical fire" there will be more thats not given out in the news and in some cases the wire's havent melted enough to not spot bad wiring, hence the retrospective policing. Appropriate bodies will eventually get to the cause where possible.

    Lets face it, its not like there are people doing inspections on every electrical job the public or most sparkies do are there? Whose gonna know that I have replaced the armoured cable that was sunk below the patio before the patio was dug up & relayed, that leads from the fuse box to the hot tub? Do you see my point? Besides, having wired it up, are there time limits that expire before it has to be inspected by someone qualified?

    Now as it happens, the spooks & bank will know that some patio work is/has been undertaken so as luck would have it, coincidentally, the water board man turned up to record the water meter early in the morning on the day work was expected to start, before the builders started digging up the patio around the water pipe. How lucky was that if a problem occurred later on which would have only shown up once the next bill came in?

    Either way, it will be interesting to see where this 3m tails idea/requirement originated from, I cant think what is significant about a 3m length as against say a 5metres length.
     
  14. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    I see your point but the idea is to make the tails more safe, you must fit a switch fuse, potentially of the same rating as the cut out fuse. In reality it does not make anything any safer, so it wouldn't really make any sense in your suggested scenario. The requirement came from a 7671 reg that has been misinterpreted by both the suppliers/meter operators and quite a few sparks. The problem is that it is a very badly worded reg and on face value, if you ever read it, it does indeed look like your not allowed to fit tails > 3m. If you read the guidance on in (GN7) the reg is correctly discussed and it becomes clear that the 3m rule refers to bus bar chambers and not tails.
     
  15. JP.

    JP. Screwfix Select

    ''two switch fuses of the same rating within three meters of each other''

    Absolutely preposterous way of doing things tbqh - who would ever put two switch fuses of the same rating within 3 mtrs of each other? - waste of time, and a waste of dosh..
     
  16. nigel willson

    nigel willson Screwfix Select

    I would always fit a switchfuse cos that's what I was taught when I worked for eastern electricity board. Assuming that ur using a swa submain you need a connection to go from tails to swa. You also have a means of isolation of ur submain. Where's th e problem. Common sense to me. Just comes down to we all have our own ways of doing stuff.would normally fit 80 Amp fuse to switchfuse.
     
  17. JP.

    JP. Screwfix Select

    Oh right sub main - thats a different kettle of fish
     
  18. JP.

    JP. Screwfix Select

    Maybe one day I might come across a scenario like what is portrayed on the posts..hope I do, because it is interesting.
     
  19. c0d3r

    c0d3r Member

    A few thoughts spring to mind but it depends on what year these came to be.
    1st being isolating or narrowing down location of the problem for fault finding & isolation depending on some circumstance which might be influenced by other organisations like Fire and their practices.

    2nd is redundancy in a system, which with so much made in China now a days and need for big business to maximise profits, quality has undoubtedly fallen in some areas as the business model has changed due to increased competition and opening up of markets. In the old days, with tight profit margin's you could only afford a failure rate of say 5%, but with larger profit margins you could afford a failure rate of say 25% which is very significant. So with a decline in a quality, by introducing two you play the odds a bit better which might be the case or not as the what why and when has still not been established.

    In the 90's for example, Russian steel mills started selling their warez in Europe, but the quality was variable so some major engineering firms avoided materials made in Russia despite it all being certified.

    Its worth mentioning products with EU ratings can have very variable quality because its cheaper to get stuff EU tested and rated in China than from within parts of the EU, and its hard to prove shortcuts have been taken once official testing & certification has been achieved so policing it can be next to impossible just like fake or counterfeit goods are sometimes impossible to police. This is why we also now have more retrospective investigations, ISO9000/90001 is more a process to establish why a cockup occurred and then to employ new practices to avoid any future cock ups. In a way, its no different to the Accident book, steps could be listed in the accident which advises how an org can avoid future accidents.

    So really until the source has been established and why, everything said is in a way just speculation at this stage.
     
  20. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    An 80a s/f on an 80a cut out?
     

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