16amp Socket in Garage

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by kirkdx, Jan 21, 2021.

  1. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    I gave you my answers, what was your point?
     
  2. Nomenklatura

    Nomenklatura Active Member

    I was trying to make the point that Section 553 defines a set of socket outlets which may be used, and in several other places the regs only allow a subset of them to be used.

    I did that because I thought you were arguing that 553.1.201 didn't mean that BS EN 60309-2 sockets couldn't be provided for use by a household because Table 55.1 listed that type of socket.

    So I apologise for my misunderstanding.
     
    Bazza-spark likes this.
  3. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    No problem at all, and thank you for being big enough to admit it. Many dont.

    Much appreciated.
     
    Nomenklatura likes this.
  4. Nomenklatura

    Nomenklatura Active Member

    It would be helpful if you'd answer this question in the manner in which it's asked, which is that of a serious debate in which definitions are very important.

    Do you genuinely believe that that is what they mean by a "shuttered socket"?
     
  5. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    Yes.

    It closes off access to the orifices.
     
  6. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Even if I could prove beyond doubt that I am right and you are wrong you would just keep turning it around and disagree. You do what you gotta do and crack on. If elecsa say it’s ok then that’s good enough for me. I could not care less. Don’t fit them, do fit them. So what?

    go on disagree with that you know you want to...
     
  7. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    @Bazza-spark ooooo “serious debate”
     
    Bazza-spark likes this.
  8. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

  9. Nomenklatura

    Nomenklatura Active Member

    Indeed it does, and I'm with Happy Builder in that it meets the test of

    "The resulting degree of safety of the installation shall be not less than that obtained by compliance with the Regulations."

    and that therefore an interlocked socket may be used instead of a shuttered one, but there is no doubt that it is a departure, and must be recorded as such on a certificate, as per 120.3.
     
  10. Nomenklatura

    Nomenklatura Active Member

    What do you think "household" means?

    Please answer this - it would be helpful:

    If you were to install sockets in your garage, or your shed, or your summer house, or on your garden wall, for whose use would they be if not your household?
     
  11. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    It is not a depature as I haveexplained. It is a permitted socket for use outside a house ie garden, garage etc.
     
  12. Nomenklatura

    Nomenklatura Active Member

    The thing is, I do not disagree with you about what "household" means.

    I am 100% in agreement with you over the definition which you quoted in an earlier post.

    What I don't understand is how you can say that that is the definition of household and then immediately turn round and say it means something different.
     
  13. Nomenklatura

    Nomenklatura Active Member

    What definition of "household" are you using?
     
  14. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    The same one as insurance companies.

    I live in a house, hence household.

    I don't live in my garage, its an outbuilding so not a household.

    I don't live in my greenhouse, its an outbuilding so not a household.

    I don't live in my shed, its an outbuilding so not a household.
     
    Coloumb likes this.
  15. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    Would I stick a 16A socket in my garage, shed, greenhouse,garden? Yes

    Would I stick a 16A socket in my kitchen, bedroom, living room? No
     
  16. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    a household is a house that people live in, a dwelling. A garage is not part of a house hold as no one lives in it so is not a dwelling. If that wasn’t the case why do building regs want compartment walls between the house and the garage if they are adjacent? One can therefore conclude that commando sockets are perfectly acceptable to put in garage as it is not part of the household/dwelling.

    If the owner of a garage repair shop lived in a house that was directly adjacent to his repair shop and wanted to use a welder requiring a 16a feed he could not fit a commando as it would be a reg breach, which is clearly very very silly. He would have to connect it to a permanent feed, which I have never seen done.

    also I don’t understand why you think a garden isn’t part of a household and a garage is. Why would it be any less safer to put a commando socket in a garage as opposed to a garden?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2021
  17. Nomenklatura

    Nomenklatura Active Member

    No it isn't. A household is the person or people who live in the house, the dwelling.

    You said so yourself:

    You actually posted the definition of "household".

    You actually posted a definition which says:

    one person living alone, or a group of people (not necessarily related) living at the same address who share cooking facilities and share a living room, sitting room or dining area. A household can consist of a single family, more than one family or no families in the case of a group of unrelated people.

    A household is a person or a group of people.

    You posted that it is.
     
  18. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    See I told you you would disagree. A household is a household who live in a house as it is a dwelling, not in a garage as it is not a dwelling so a household can't live in it. I don't see why your making such a big deal out of it tbh. What difference does it make? The reg refers to "household or similar". Not to "household and non-dwellings". Your just arguing for the sake of it.
     
  19. Nomenklatura

    Nomenklatura Active Member

    So you are not using the definition which Coloumb posted.

    You are not using the definition which Wikipedia documents.

    You are not using the definition which the ONS uses.

    You are not using the definition which is in the Covid regulations/guidance.

    In short, you aren't using the official definition.

    OK - not much anybody can do if that's your approach. Once you start ignoring real definitions and start using anything which suits you then you've derailed any hope of a rational examination of what regulations mean.
     
  20. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Looking up a code for a 60309-2 in a dwelling from Napit code-breakers - Section 5 - Distribution and Final Circuits

    Description of Observation...

    Red industrial type (BS EN 60309-2) plug and socket used on 230 V domestic dwelling installation - reg breach = 553.1.201 - code = c2

    Napit makes deliberate reference to domestic dwelling installation, not to domestic dwelling and/or other non-dwellings installation. But no doubt you have a very low opinion of them and they are wrong too.
     

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