Install Power Sockets In Workshop - Good Practice

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by SomeOfTheGear, Oct 1, 2021.

  1. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    My question was

    Would you be happy to issue an EIC for that if you had no visibility of how the cable was installed?

    Nothing to do with 3rd party inspections - they are completely different.
     
  2. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    5. Part P third party scheme operators must, at all times whilst they are authorised as such, comply with all the requirements in the Department of Communities and Local Government’s Conditions of Authorisation for Part P Third Party Certification Schemes. In particular:  It is the responsibility of each third party certification scheme operators to assess all businesses applying for registration with its third party certification scheme in line with the requirements of this MTC; the Department of Communities and Local Government’s Conditions of Authorisation for Part P Third Party Certification Schemes; and the Building Regulations. Businesses may be assessed against the relevant route of entry in Annex A to this MTC but may be registered only if they demonstrate the required competence levels set out in the Annex B to this MTC. Details of the relevant National Occupational Standards are given at Annex C.  On request, third party scheme operators will make available to applicants to their schemes copies of this MTC and the NOS.  Each third party scheme operator must carry out periodic surveillance of businesses registered with its third party certification scheme as required under the Conditions of Authorisation. Such surveillance will include ensuring that registered businesses are conforming with their responsibilities under this MTC, the Conditions of Authorisation and the Building Regulations.  Where surveillance shows that a registered business no longer has the technical competences required to carry out third party certification of electrical installations, the scheme operator must take appropriate steps to suspend the business from carrying out third party certification until it can demonstrate that it has acquired the required technical competence. If it is unable to do so the business must be removed from the register.
     
  3. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    Wasnt arguing over it, I said I would be happy to issue an EIC if the cable was accesible to view. read my previous posts I have answered you. I would not issue a cert if I had not seen and tested the cable upon the first fix
     
  4. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    ANNEX A: Entry Routes for Registration of Third Party Certifiers of Electrical Installations in Dwellings Entry route Knowledge and understanding requirements Length of experience required On site assessment of inspection and testing of work done by others 1 Level 3 certificate in electrical work in dwellings including a Level 3 certificate in inspection and testing 2 years Yes, unless an assessment done within previous two years 2 NVQ 3 in electrical installation including a level 3 award or certificate in inspection and testing of electrical installations in dwellings 2 years Yes, unless an assessment done within previous two years 3 Relevant electrical installation qualification preceding NVQ plus a level 3 award or certificate in inspection and testing of electrical installations in dwellings 2 years Yes, unless an assessment done within previous twelve months 4 Auditable evidence, for example certificates of competence, that reflect the learning outcomes in the level 3 certificate in electrical installations in dwellings and in a level 3 award or certificate in inspection and testing of electrical installations in dwellings 2 years Yes, unless an assessment done within previous twelve months 5 Existing recognised qualified supervisors with a level 3 award or certificate in inspection and testing of electrical installations in dwellings or auditable evidence that reflects the learning outcomes in such an award or
     
  5. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Right, but would you issue an EIC or MWC IF you had seen the cable installed, where happy with it, and you are not in any way acting for your client using the 3rd party notification option available via who ever you are registered with? That's the (hypercritical) point I'm trying to make.
     
  6. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    Same here mate, it is a sad reflection of the times. When the schemes were introduced and we had to register for part P I kicked against it as I knew that was the end of being a spark as we know it.
     
  7. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    No because why would I? Under the 3rd party scheme then the answer is yes.
     
  8. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Your #18 post would very strongly suggest this not to be case but there you are.
     
  9. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    No idea what you are talking about to be honest, but I havent changed my tune all the way through. You may be reading my posts wrong or misinterpreting it
     
  10. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    @Coloumb just cut and pasted my statement at the beginning of my posts. I fail to see where you are confused tbh.
    For an Armoured cable that I can see and test it is clear of any faults, yes I would. The cable should not be back filled until it has been inspected. The customer has laid a cable in a trench is no different to me or anyone else simply rolling it out into a trench. And saves me digging the trench and supplying the cable. We do many 3d party EIC this way.
     
  11. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Your post #18...

    Nothing about 3rd party notification afaics. And no mention of it prior to post #18 by you either. Which bit am I reading wrong or misinterpreting?
     
  12. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    mate I am now totally confused by your posts, I dont think you understand the whole thing about 3rd party EIC as you keep chopping and changing from one thing to another. First you said you can only certify your own work, this is not the case if you are a qualified spark such as myself. You then said it is the Law that you have to be a qualified spark to work ads a spark, once again this is not the case. I have seen countless shoddy jobs from cowboy "sparks" I use that term very lightly, having an 18th edition and a silly course is not a qualified spark yet they are in abundance. No idea what post 18 is, just cut and paste it for god sake. Your misinterpretations and views are not mine.
     
  13. spinlondon

    spinlondon Screwfix Select

    A couple of points:
    The law allows anyone (qualified or not, registered or not) to call themselves an electrician.
    Both the Regulations and the law allow anyone (qualified or not) to issue an EIC.
    (The Approved Document Part P 2010 did require the person issuing an EIC to be qualified, however that ceased to be a requirement with the introduction of Approved Document Part P 2013.)
    The Regulations allow someone who is responsible for the work (not necessarily the person who actually did the work) to issue an EIC.
    The 3rd Party scheme does not allow a 3rd party to issue an EIC, it allows the 3rd party to issue what is to all effects an EICR.
    Both the Regulations and the law have allowed persons who have not even attended site, to issue an EIC for a number of years, hence the NICEIC Qualified Supervisor scheme.
     
  14. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    Yes this is how it is and you are absolutely right. You have summed up in a few lines what I was trying to get accross in 20 odd posts. Regardless to the rights and wrongs and regardless to your own personal views on it, it is eveident that if this subject can cause such confusion / divided opinions amongst electricians themselves, how is the DIY person meant to understand or even bother with any of it. Nothing is stopping anyone from doing anything themselves. Like I said way back in my posts, this is not policed and probably why the self certification was introduced in the first place. Local BC could not deal with the demand or all of the inspections and the testing themselves. Hence the introduction of self certification. Scheme operators wanted the £500 per member and were actively recruiting anyone who wanted to be registered by making the process simple in order for them to join their scheme and not anyone elses. Its all about money and nothing else. Nowadays you virtually need to be a solicitor to be an electrician wading through all of the red tape and BS. No wonder more are opting out of schemes nowadays and doing non notifiable work.
     
  15. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    Thats a good summation of the situation.

    The main thing that impaires DIY'ers from certifying their own work (apart from not knowing what they are doing!!) is lack of test gear and the knowledge of how to use it. Many times on here you have someone setting out a perfectly good plan for something, which is not notifiable, and therefore they can self issue an MWC, but they go quiet when you ask about testing, because of course the cheapest MFT is about £400, and you really need to be doing a lot of work to justify that, not just a new socket in the lounge!!
     
  16. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    The thing is Tony, the average DIY person who is adding an additional socket in their home would be oblivious to the rules and probably wouldn't know what is notifiable and what isn't. This then becomes a case of they know if they tap onto a 2.5 cable with a junction box and put a socket on this and it works, spurs them onto doing more of this around the house, before you know it you have spurs off spurs off spurs. Have done plenty of EICR and seen plenty examples of this, then there is the usual no grommets, no earth sleeving, loose connections sockets at 45 degrees on the wall. and this is from the allegedly qualified sparks!!!!!
     
  17. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    What @spinlondon says only applies in England. Wales didn't make the 2013 changes and still require people to be qualified just to add to the confusion.
     
    bright_Spark likes this.
  18. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    Thats the whole trouble Bazza isnt it. It is the way it all got jumbled up, it confuses lots of us as we all can interpretate the rules and the regs for that matter differently.
     
  19. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    It really is a minefield, especially on here where you don't know which bit of the country people live in when they ask their questions.
     
    bright_Spark likes this.
  20. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    Yes exactly, along with you are not stood in front of the problem with your eyes and try to give advice via written text, it is hardly surprising that we often cannot help this way. Then some know it all type leaps on to rip what you have said and turns it into a forensic investigation!!!!!!
     
    Bazza-spark likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice