Part P questions, DIY nightmare

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by dwain pipe, May 21, 2021.

  1. dwain pipe

    dwain pipe New Member

    Hello everyone,

    I don't know if this is in the correct section, it's electrical but I'm not an electrician so don't know if I'm allowed to post here.

    My wife and I bought our first home back in 2006 when we were younger and naïve, and we still live there but are looking to move house soon. I have seen that the Part P regs came into force in 2005, just before we bought it, and I have also seen that we'll need to have some kind of certification for the electrics and gas if I've understood it correctly.

    It would appear that the house was partially or fully rewired before we purchased it, including the replacement of the consumer unit, installation of an electric shower, and the addition of some sockets where there didn't used to be any. Looking at the poor standard of the work that's been done, I would say that these changes were carried out by the previous occupier himself, almost certainly before 2005 (but we have no way of proving that of course). I don't believe that a qualified electrician was probably involved, indeed there were no certificates for any of the work provided to us when we moved in. There are lots of non-electrical DIY bodge jobs around the property and I don't think any of it was done by a tradesman.

    Since we moved here in 2006 I have not altered anything electrical at all myself but in recent years I have swapped out various things like-for-like, including the electric cooker (disconnected the old one and connected a new one, also replacing the cooker connection point because the old one was damaged), the electric shower (exact same make/model so a straight swap), and the transformer for some low voltage lights in the bathroom (again, it was a like-for-like swap).

    I see that there were changes to the Part P regs back in 2013 that say certain things are no longer notifiable, am I right in thinking that the above things I mentioned are included in this since I have replaced things like-for-like and have not installed any new circuits?

    Is there some kind of electrical inspection/certification that we need to get if we're going to sell the house? Because if there is, I'm pretty sure it will fail. Like I say, I'm no electrician but there are things here which I know are wrong. For example there is a thin round cable (I'd say it was a round flex cable that you'd use for a lamp) coming from somewhere in the lounge, presumably off the back of a socket, running around the outside of the lounge floor, up the wall in one corner via a stick-on plastic conduit, through a hole in the ceiling, into the bedroom above, and into a double wall socket that shouldn't be there (flush mounted with the cable emerging from a hole underneath). We do not use these sockets for obvious reasons and I'd like to remove it but would that be a notifiable change, even though it's not meant to be there? I have also removed a light switch to find copper cores twisted together, unsecured and uninsulated.

    I'm sorry this is such a long post but I'm really worried about it, and thanks for reading if you still are.
     
  2. Dan Greenslade

    Dan Greenslade Active Member

    Just quoting on a couple of things there, have you got a picture of this cable going from the sockets etc? Is it actually going into the socket etc? I know a lot of people will run data cables etc through trunking into other rooms.. Also I imagine the unsheathed cable twisted together is the earthing. Very bodged but you come across it all the time in the trade. If you are looking to sell the house I would definitely advise bringing a sparky in to ensure it is safe and can issue you an IEC that you can pass over.
     
  3. jonathanc

    jonathanc Guest

    There is no point in getting any certificate you can “pass over” because a buyer cannot rely on it because the certificate is addressed to you.

    you have two options really

    a) in the sale process you offer no warranty as to the electrical installation in the house or

    b) you bring it up to current standard and share the evidence on a non reliance basis to the purchaser

    if the property is generally in need or refurbishment I would suggest option a) if it is in good order and it’s just the electrics then consider b) but you may just find it’s not worth the hassle abs deal with a slight price reduction for not having pristine electrics.
    All depends on what you are selling abs the target market/ buyers
     
    dwain pipe likes this.
  4. jimbobby

    jimbobby Screwfix Select

    Never understood people buying a 50 year old house and expecting all to be like new.
    Is the kitchen new.
    Is the boiler new
    Are the electric up to the current standards.
    Are the windows super A rated and fensa registered.

    The house is sold as an older property not a new build. The price will reflect the age and condition.
    Caveat Emptor.

    j
     
    dwain pipe likes this.
  5. Dan Greenslade

    Dan Greenslade Active Member

    I was naive and bought my house a few years back.. old 1800s property thinking it would be a lovely little cottage to do up. Needless to say I've had endless problems :D .. slowly getting there, currently about to completely redo the kitchen, ripping it out this weekend then getting started. A lot of the time, me included you buy a place not knowing the full extent of works required. I've had soil pipe leaks, tap leaks, electrics going, roof leaks the lot ha.. Anyway going off topic here apologies
     
    dwain pipe likes this.
  6. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    If worried due to selling you can take out an insurance policy. If worried about your safety well call and electrician an tell him your worried.

    You can get an EICR (electrical installation condition report) cost around £100 takes around 1/2 a day, but likely better off getting an electrician to give it a quick once over and let him point out obvious faults. One gets a feel for the installation, I know there are faults with this house, a socket supplied from an extension lead which goes under the kitchen door threshold for example, on my to do list, but way it is covered not really a danger.

    So really you don't need a detailed report, just getting some piece of mind.
     
    dwain pipe likes this.
  7. jonathanc

    jonathanc Guest

    sorry there is no insurance you can buy here unless you are worried about non compliance with building regs but the time limit for enforceability is 12 months and if you know your house does not comply there is no way an insurer will take that risk

    and I keep saying. The only person that can rely on the EICR is the customer. It has no value to a potential purchaser.

    consider this: an electrician carries out an EIRC for a customer: everything is fine on the certificate. House is sold and the buyer finds out there are multiple problems so they go after the electrician. The first question his PI insurers will ask is whether the claimant is the customer. If not they’ll deny the claims. The point here is when performing abs EIRC you have a responsibility to your customer. That is what you are paid for. You do not have a responsibility (in general) to third parties
     
    dwain pipe likes this.
  8. dwain pipe

    dwain pipe New Member

    Hi, thanks for the reply. It is 100% not data cable, it is feeding the double socket from downstairs. i can add pictures later on.

    The 2 wires twisted together behind the light switch were not the Earth.

    Thanks
     
  9. dwain pipe

    dwain pipe New Member

    Dan Greenslade,

    I've just removed the sockets for a look behind and it seems I was mistaken, the sockets are supposed to be there after all and are properly wired in, and the thin flex cable coming out the bottom (which contains a Live, Neutral and Earth) is a spur which somebody's taken off to supply, it seems, a single socket on the other side of the room where there was once maybe a television since there is also an aerial socket nearby. It is not feeding the double socket as I incorrectly believed.

    It's obviously still not right though so I will remove the spur and the single socket I think, leaving the original double sockets in place. I know better than to plug anything into it but the next guy might plug a 2KW heater in and burn the place down, and I can't have that.

    Honestly, the more I look at the electrics in here the more dodgy things I find. There are still cables running about the place, under the hardwood flooring that I've not yet identified. The more I think about it, the more things I could mention here.

    As for the twisted together cables, to add more detail, there is a conservatory on the back of the house which was built by the same guy (bringing with it more issues, such as likely no planning permission and the fact that the drain from the kitchen is open and is inside the conservatory, but that's yet another story). The lighting in the conservatory comes from a 4 foot fluorescent fitting which is cabled with twin & earth to a single pole light switch on the wall, and from there the cable runs through to the kitchen where there's a 3 pin plug on the end which is plugged into a socket. The wires which were twisted together would have been the Neutral since only the Live is switched.

    Many thanks
     
  10. Dan Greenslade

    Dan Greenslade Active Member

    Yeah, removing the spurred socket is nice and easy just please make sure it is all isolated. If you have a socket tester use this. With regards to the lighting, are you saying they have taken the lighting circuit for the conservatory straight off the kitchen ring main? No fused spur or anything?
     
  11. dwain pipe

    dwain pipe New Member

    I totally agree jimbobby,

    It just concerns me that if I sell the house without saying anything about it and the next guy has an electrician look it over, somebody might come after me for selling it in that state although maybe that fear is unfounded? It's not just that it's old (the house dates to about 1980 I believe) but that it would probably be considered dangerous. We've been here 15 years with no issues. Well saying that, there was an almighty bang one night and the screw-on cover of the bathroom ceiling pull switch was blown off because of a short that had been caused by the sheathing on the Live/Neutral (can't remember which) having been cut through when the cables were stripped by whoever put it in, no doubt the same guy. I'm mostly worried about where i stand in terms of getting into trouble, not that it was me that caused these issues.

    Thanks
     
  12. dwain pipe

    dwain pipe New Member

    Correct, it's a single switched wall socket. No fuse or anything else. The conservatory light plugs straight into that and is switched in the conservatory. The cabling is tacked around the skirting boards and goes through what's left of the back door frame (there is no proper back door, yet another story and something that's waiting to cost me a lot of money which I don't really have) then up the frame to the switch, which is on the wall, then on up the frame and across the conservatory roof to the fluorescent fitting. I'd like to just rip the whole lot out and have an electrician put it right but I'm sure it would cost a fortune.

    Thanks
     
  13. Marine boy

    Marine boy Member

    As jimbobby said, caveat emptor. Tell the buyer that you have no knowledge as to the state of the electrics, which as a lay person you don’t. If they want they can pay for an inspection. They can then negotiate with you as to the cost of that or whether you are prepared to drop the price according to what the inspection finds.
     
  14. Dan Greenslade

    Dan Greenslade Active Member

    If its all surface mounted anyway and you are worrying about it being unsafe (which it is) then you could always incorporate a switched/unswitched fuse spur into the circuit. If you aren't confident doing this then bring an electrician in to fix your issue.
     
  15. dwain pipe

    dwain pipe New Member

    I always thought it was probably an unsafe way of providing power to the conservatory light. Maybe I'll just unplug it, rip it out before we move and if the next guy wants a light in the conservatory they can get an electrician in to do it properly. We're in a pretty bad situation, we're desperate to move out of this terrible DIY disaster house since we've now got 2 children and hardly any space but there's so much to do to make it saleable I just don't know where to start and I don't have tens of thousands of pounds to pay for it all. The guy that botched the electrics also botched the bathroom, 2 of the walls surrounding the bath are made of non-marine plywood, just tiled straight onto, and have consequently rotted out along with the floor underneath. I know I've gone off-topic, sorry, I guess I've got no other outlet.

    Thanks for your help.
     
  16. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    If it looks unsafe and is on a plug, as you say, rip it out, or just cut the plug off.

    As to selling, it's up to the buyer to satisfy themselves as to the condition of the place and order any surveys and inspections they want. If they ask for certificates you don't have, you don't have them, say no more.

    As your bodged wiring pre dates 2005 in all liklihood, then there is no requirement for you to have anything on file.

    I have sold and brought several times, best to let the agent handle everything, don't have anything to do with the buyer in person, and never say or infer anything that could imply a warranty or assumption that something is OK.

    Sensible buyers will know that no house, new or old, will be without its issues. Buyer beware and all that.
     
  17. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    I could not find the paperwork when selling mothers house, so applied to council for replacement, was told it would take 4 months so totally useless. But then solicitor said if not available there is an insurance that covers, but I then found the paperwork so not required.

    When I bought the new house we had a buyers report which included comments as to the state of wiring, he noted there was a disused fuse box between old garage ceiling and new false ceiling, he was nearly correct, it was not disused, it still supplied the whole house.

    But selling three houses in last few years the idea of doing things before sale it daft, we got central heating fixed and solar panels fixed before selling father-in-laws old house, and new owner ripped them both out, and as to come back should electrician get it wrong, well it would be the buyer claiming off you and you claiming off the electrician.

    We had this with father-in-laws boiler, we had set up contract repair for him while he was alive, but they had never activated it, they wanted the system flushed out first, and clearly once house sold too late, we did get a refund, however had it been activated then it was transferable.
     
  18. dwain pipe

    dwain pipe New Member

    That's the bit that worries me. Somebody moves in here, discovers there are unsafe electrics, decides to have it all repaired, then comes after me for compensation (or I find out I've committed some kind of offence and get prosecuted). Can that happen? How about if I sell my car to somebody, sold as seen, then 2 months down the line the clutch goes. Can they come after me to pay for it? I don't think so, so is it the same situation with property or would they be able to come after me (or more likely their solicitor) looking for some kind of compensation/prosecution? I just don't want to find myself in court answering to why I sold a place with unsafe electrics. Or am I being ridiculous? Since this was our first house purchase I have never actually sold a house, so I'm not sure of all the ins and outs, I'm sorry for my ignorance. I'm one of life's worriers!

    Thanks
     
  19. dwain pipe

    dwain pipe New Member

    Thanks for all the answers here. I appreciate it. I forgot to mention that I was looking at the possibility of part-exchanging our property with a housing developer, so they take our place on (probably for less than the market value) which takes all the hassle out of us having to sell the place and deal with estate agents. As I skimmed through their terms and conditions on the website I noticed that they mentioned the certificates which is what sparked all this off for me today. I'm pretty sure that the developer (Persimmon Homes was one that I was looking at) would want some decent checks/surveys carried out on the place before agreeing to take it on, maybe more so than an every day buyer.
     
  20. Dan Greenslade

    Dan Greenslade Active Member

    I can't imagine you will be in any danger of this happening. You are selling your house as it is, no false pretences as you arent dealing with the buyer. It is up to the buyer to view the house, and get the required forms they want/need.
     
    dwain pipe likes this.

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