Lollypop Circuit?

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Jon Butterworth, Oct 27, 2021.

  1. Jon Butterworth

    Jon Butterworth New Member

    Hiya,

    I'm having my garden landscaped currently and I'm looking at the location for the lights. The lights I'm using are all Phillips Hue, so LED and nothing massive. There will be about 12 of them in total of varying styles, but all phillips hue.

    I've had a hard time getting an electrician to run a new feed from the unit. I'm comfortable with electrics myself, I just don't really want to mess with the unit, nor cut holes in the wall to run a cable (because I don't want the hassle of patching it up).

    I'd like to put a weatherproof fused spur next to the outdoor socket, and then daisy chain the lights from this spur. I believe this is called a lollypop circuit because it's a radial coming off a ring? Is that correct?

    My question is, will this be okay for 12 or so fairly low powered lights. I could work out the exact draw of the lights, but my guess is they wouldn't go near a 5a fuse in the spur.

    Any help and thoughts would be appreciated.

    Thanks
     
  2. Jon Butterworth

    Jon Butterworth New Member

    I've checked all of the lights I'm installing and the highest wattage one is 15w LED. So based on a worst case scenario, we've got 12 15w LED lights, which works out at about 0.7A.
     
  3. Jimbo

    Jimbo Screwfix Select

    You need RCD protection on the circuit and a cable suitable for however it is run - perhaps SWA directly buried?
     
  4. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    The term lollipop circuit is generally used to describe a type of circuit technically called a Ring Radial Hybrid, thats not what this is, this is just a spur feeding some lights!

    And yes it's fine as you describe

    As jimbo says, you need RCD protection, either the ring needs to be on a 30mA RCD or the spur needs an RCD fused spur, hopefully your ring has an RCD which takes care of that.

    Then it is just a case of keeping it all watertight. as the lights are pulling very little current you can use 1.5 SWA (the smallest commercial size) buried, or any wiring system suitable fixed above ground, ie cable in conduit.

    If using SWA I quite like Pratley junction boxes which have the SWA glands built in and if correctly fitted last forever. Whatever box you use put some magic gel or plastic compound inside if its going underground, this prevents condensation building up in there.
     
  5. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    There may be an issue here. If the outdoor socket is already a spur from the (house?) ring final then you cannot add another spur to it. That would be a spur off a spur, and that breaks the rules.
    If the existing socket already has a fused connection unit on the spur BEFORE the socket you are OK. It depends on the set up.
     
  6. Jimbo

    Jimbo Screwfix Select

    Could put them the other way around.
     
  7. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    Can you be more explanatory?
     
  8. Jon Butterworth

    Jon Butterworth New Member

    Thank you for the responses and help.

    The socket is on the same ring as the downstairs socket and so is protected by an RCD in the unit. Would I need another RCD in the fused spur?

    The socket outside appears to just be a socket with no fuse.. so was assuming it was part of the ring for the downstairs sockets. Would it normally be a spur off the ring its self? The house is a new build.
     
  9. Jon Butterworth

    Jon Butterworth New Member

    I need to verify this, how would I do so? I am very keen not to do something which breaks any rules or has the potential to be dangerous.
     
  10. Jon Butterworth

    Jon Butterworth New Member

    If it's better to do so... I have another idea. I could actually spur off a socket inside, putting the fused spur on the inside wall, then drill a hole through the house to the outside and daisy chain the lights that way. This way we know I'm not spurring from a spur?
     
  11. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    Have a look inside the outside socket. If it has one cable then it may be a spur from the ring.
    Have a look inside the house, is there a fused connection unit that isolates just that socket?
    As your circuit is RCD protected then you don’t need another one.

    that’s an option too. Unless that socket already has the connection to the outside socket already!
    It’s a matter of seeing and understanding what is there.
     
  12. Jimbo

    Jimbo Screwfix Select

    Replace the outside socket with the FCU. Then put the socket next to it as the first thing on the 13A radial and the SWA onwards from there.
     
  13. Jon Butterworth

    Jon Butterworth New Member

    I looked inside and it's just a single cable coming out of the wall into the weatherproof box. There may be a fused connection on the inside of the wall, but if so it'll be behind the built in dishwasher, likely where the dishwasher is plugged in. I'll have to check this later (the socket on the outside is located in approximately this area).
     
    spannerw likes this.
  14. Jon Butterworth

    Jon Butterworth New Member

    If I do find the fused spur inside which feeds the outside socket... can I just remove the outside socket (which never gets used) and use the feed which goes to it?
     
  15. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    The feed to your lights will need to be fused appropriately. IF there is a fused connection unit inside that will be dedicated to the lights then change the fuse to 3amps.

    But please first tell us the actual layout, as requested above. It’s easier than dealing with suppositions.
     
  16. Jon Butterworth

    Jon Butterworth New Member

    Currently, I have a double socket in a weatherproof box on the wall outside. Inside this box comes a single cable from inside. My suspicion is there will be a fused spur inside which feeds this socket, however I can't confirm this because it comes out from behind the kitchen units. I suspect I'd need to remove the dishwasher (which is built in) to get to it.. or get someone much smaller to look from under the sink cupboard.

    The other option I have is to feed all the lights from the garage instead. The garage has a 20amp direct feed from the unit by way of an armoured cabled under the garden. With these lights drawing such little power, I don't foresee a problem with 20 amps not being enough, but presumably it's easier to increase the feed to the garage if needs be?

    So my options as I see them are:

    1.) Confirm there's a fused spur behind the dishwasher, change the fuse to 3amp, remove the socket & run the lights in a daisy chain patter from there.

    2.) Put a fused spur next to an internal socket (in another location, no risk of the outside socket coming from it). Then feed a single cable out and daisy chain from there.

    3.) Put a fused spur in the supply for the garage and daisy chain the lights from that location.

    It's worth mentioning that because I'm using solely Phillips Hue lights I don't care at all about physical switches, whether I have one or where it's location may be.

    Edit: I mentioned that it's likely easier to increase the supply to the garage, but I don't know this for sure. The cable going to the garage is a standard armoured cable... (6mm?) so it should be able to take 32amp if I get the RCD changed which feeds the garage (although I suspect it won't be needed since the lights draw so little).
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2021
  17. Mr Rusty

    Mr Rusty Screwfix Select

    If you haven't yet bought the lights, why not consider something from the low voltage hue range? Bit more expensive, but removes all the hassle of mains. I have 3x hue lily approx 20m away from the garage where the power supply is located and about same distance from another hue bulb - as they mesh this seems to work fine. I actually split one of their extensions and patched in a section of 2 core flex to get the distance. I was a little worried about volt drop, but as philips provide a 100w power supply (mine is only 40w), I figured it was designed to drive decent distances.

    I ran my LV cable in the ground inside 20mm flex conduit.

    It all works perfectly. The low voltage joints are all IP rated so you also remove all the hassle of jointing up.
     
    Jimbo likes this.
  18. Jon Butterworth

    Jon Butterworth New Member

    Some of the lights I have are the Lily low voltage, but they still need mains supply to the transformer. I was actually thinking about sending them back because it's harder work to get a socket to the transformer than it is to run a feed for the lights.
     
  19. Mr Rusty

    Mr Rusty Screwfix Select

    So put the transformer inside the house/outbuilding and just run LV outside like I have. I used a wiska box outside and took the LV cable in flex conduit for 20m no issues. because it is LV, doesn't have to be SWA, doesn't have to be particularly well buried or protected. The philips hue 100W PSU says you can run 2 x 30m cables from it https://www.philips-hue.com/en-gb/p...-ambiance-outdoor-100w-power-supply/1748830GN as I say, I made my own extension by splitting a philips one and patching in some 2 core to get the distance.
     
  20. Jon Butterworth

    Jon Butterworth New Member

    My thinking was just to daisy chain the 230v lights in 20mm conduit anyway.. which is actually arguably easier. The conduit is going to be burried under a mortar bed and porcelain slabs anyway, so it's going to be completely waterproof any way. Then I'll just silicone the lights into their forever places which will add extra protection too. However, I now have to contend with the LV stuff too, because I'm pretty dead set on having two of the XL Lily lights in flower beds pointing at the trees. So, I will have to get some extensions for that too and run them in the same conduit.
     

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