EICR Query

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Skents, Nov 28, 2022.

  1. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    Yes exactly.
     
  2. Skents

    Skents New Member

    Thank you everyone for all of your wise words and advice. Separating out the inspection and the necessary works is a sensible suggestion for next time. Thank you. I have left a message for my electrician and will discuss all of your comments with him. If I have no joy, I'll be looking for a new electrician in the Chichester area!
     
  3. adgjl

    adgjl Screwfix Select

    The Meter Tails (insulated & sheathed singles) belong to the property owner. Where the Meter Operator has not fitted an isolator, the tails can only be connected / disconnected from the meter by the Meter Operator. The Meter Operator is the company that supplies your electricity, which is not necessarily the DNO.
     
  4. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Providing the rating of the cut out fuse is known and thence the tails are installed to the requirements of 7671 the tails can be any length. The DNO can certainly ask for the tails to be kept <3m but they have no legal route to enforce this.
     
  5. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    The DNO don't "set" the length even if they stipulate this - they have no legal route to enforce their requirements. It can be done by the installer providing the tails are installed to within the performance limitations of 7671.
     
  6. adgjl

    adgjl Screwfix Select

    If you wish to use their fuse to protect your tails, then you follow their rules. If you don’t wish to use their fuse, install your own overcurrent protection within 3m cable length from it. Simple.
     
  7. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    There is no legal framework for them to enforce any "rules" on the length of the tails any more than 7671 can be thought of as "legally binding". A DNO can certainly ask but they can't tell.

    Installing a s/f of the same rating as the cut out within 3m of their cut out is just a waste of time and resources. The only way that schema could be made to work would be to use discrimation, which on a 60a cut out would give you 30a to play with, not very useful in a domestic.
     
  8. adgjl

    adgjl Screwfix Select

    Not so. Not BS7671, but ESQCR 2002 (as amended), backed by the DNO’s LV Design Rules. That makes it statutory. Ignore it at your peril. If there is a fault that the cutout fuse does not clear and the tails are over the prescribed length, I doubt the DNO (or their insurers) will be interested.
     
  9. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    A DNO can disconnect your supply and if you try and be clever they will dig a hole in the road or shin up a pole to do it outside of the property boundary, I have seen this done to people who thought they could do as they like.
     
  10. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    the esqcr makes no reference at all to tail lengths and no reference at to to enacting any design rules the DNO have into law so it doesn’t make anything about tail lengths statutory whatsoever. The DNO might have their own rules on tail lengths but no means to legally enforce them.

    the DNO fuse works in exactly the same way as any other fuse does. It doesn’t stop operating after 3 m so providing the design criteria appropriate to the fuse are used sticking another in 3m from it is going to make exactly 0.0% difference to anything. Even less if it’s a TT. Total waste of time. If the DNO took you to court for it any defence brief would make this perfectly clear and the DNO would be made liable switch fuse or not.
     
  11. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    they would have to have a legally valid reason to cut you off, tails longer than 3m is not one of them
     
    longboat likes this.
  12. adgjl

    adgjl Screwfix Select

    It is not a discussion, it is a statement of fact. The DNO set the length of tails. My employer (a DNO) specify 2.500m. If they are longer, you will not get a meter fitted, and will have to pay extra for a second visit.
     
    The Happy Builder likes this.
  13. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Unfortunately that's simply not the case. They can ask but they have no legal framework to enforce this requirement. Unless you can come up with an actual law that says otherwise then it is not correct to say it is a statement of fact, because clearly it isn't. If you work for DNO they presumably have a legal department you could ask?
     
  14. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Just to close out.

    The Energy Networks Assoc, the representative body for the energy suppliers, who's members are listed here, published Engineering Recommendation back in 2015. It has this to say about long tails.

    lt - Copy.jpg

    So it seems there is a massive disconnect between what the DNO are telling their employees/customers and what the actual recommended practice is when it comes to tails >3m.
     
  15. dai.versity

    dai.versity Active Member

    How long is a piece of string, or a tail
     
  16. adgjl

    adgjl Screwfix Select

    Not so. The paragraph where you have highlighted “long tails” refers to the tails between the cutout and the meter, not between the meter and the consumer unit.

    My answer that the DNO set the distance between the meter and the consumer unit therefore stands. The length of tails between the cutout and the metering equipment would be agreed between the DNO and the Meter Operator.
     
  17. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    No it doesn't. It clearly says the cut out and meter needs to be near each other but the consumers switch gear ie CU, can be remote by use of long tails. It then sets out the requirements for running long tails, ie SWA, steel conduit etc. isolator at the source of the run. The diagram on page 34 makes this perfectly clear. Download the recommendation and take a look.
     
  18. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    I'm with you here, to me the paragraph is describing a set up where a cut out is, say located on the ground floor of a premises, but the meter is on the third floor. It is describing a local isolating device adjacent to the meter, like a solid link red cut out, this kind of arrangement is often seen in HMO's / houses chopped up to form flats, flats above shops etc. where a more formalised feeder pillar set up is not in place (there is a brand name for the multi cut out cabinets, but it evades me!)
     
  19. dai.versity

    dai.versity Active Member

    Ryefield units
     
  20. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Diagram A1 explains it better. It shows prem. 3 and 4. tails as being completely owned by the DNO. There are long tails to prem 3 protected by the DNO's cut out so as they belong to the DNO they they can be as long as the DNO want. Prem, 5 and 6 show the same arrangement but the tails are owned by the BNO, or more likely who ever owns prem. 5. If they are owned by the BNO/flat owner then there can't be an agreement between the meter operator and the DNO since they are not owned by the meter operator @adgjl. So note then the subtle difference between the two setups. Prem 5 has a DPI installed on the long tails where as prem 3 does not. nothing about 3m or a switch fuse. Now take a look at diagram A4 which takes the whole thing to a logical conclusion. The meters are remote from the premises meaning it doesn't really matter at which end the meter is at and again the tails belong to the BNO/flat owners. Protection for the tails is provided by the multiway cut out. Again no mention of a separate s/f or three meters, just the need for a DPI and presumably for the tails to be run in SWA.

    In any case it's all rather academic since there isn't any legal framework for the DNO to enforce any kind to limit on tail length anyway and putting another switch fuse in the mix won't make one iota of difference anyway. Just a waste of resources.

    The only argument I seem to be hearing over and over again is the notion that tails >3m need another switch because simply because it's always been done that way and if you don't the whole collective DNO industry will go into a complete meltdown.
     

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