18th. question.

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by seneca, Apr 26, 2019.

  1. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Actually a funny storey about that. When I asked the network suppliers to change the cut-out for some reason they asked if I new what sort of fuse I had in it. BG had been round earlier to fit the smart meter so I took a few pics while he had the fuse out. Sent them to the network supplier and whooooo blimey did I get a roasting. They thought I had popped the fuse myself lol. But hey guess what. Nothing happened. Nadda.
  2. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    When you read the whole lot, it does say the DNO MAY require, but then it gives the regulations. As long as you have not made any changes they should not require it.

    But what do I know, I only have 46 years in the trade.

    Kind regards
  3. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    I had 2 similar situations.

    One was with a small substation wall. We needed to move it by about 3 feet to extend the factory.

    Swalec wen bonkers about it when they found we had done it. Then I showed them I was electricity board trained (NORWEB) so they shut up.

    The other instance was when we were taking out a disused 3 phase supply. I removed the 3 meters from the board. Again they went nuts till they found I was ex-board.

    Funny isn't it lol.

    Kind regards
  4. spinlondon

    spinlondon Screwfix Select

    Funny you mentioned Norweb, this first quote is from Northern Power grid taken from their advice to customers requiring a service alteration:
    “The meter tails between the meter position and your consumer unit should not be longer than 3 metres. If the length is more than 3 metres, you should install an additional protective device at the nearest point to the supply inside the customer’s premises, as specified in the current IEE Wiring Regulations.”

    This one is from the Association of Meter operators:
    “The meter tails should be as short as possible. Different metering companies have different policies but the length should always be less than 3 metres of cable from the cut-out through the metering equipment to the consumer unit. A example may be 1m of cable from the cut-out to the meter, then 1.5m from the meter to the consumer unit. The meter tail cable size must be consistent. BS7671 Reg. 434.2.1 gives some guidance. If the consumer unit is required to be further away, then a switch-fuse unit should be installed close to the meter and a sub-main compliant with BS7671.”

    This one from SP for a new commercial supply:
    “The customer’s tails must not exceed 3m in length from termination point to fused isolator.”

    This is from SSE for new connections:
    “The length of interconnecting cable (tails) between the meter position and your consumer unit must not exceed 3.0m.”

    “Meter tails – these cables connect the meter to your consumer unit. You will need to ask your electrician to install these before you arrange for your energy supplier to fit your meter. They should be 25mm double insulated cables with a 16mm earth wire and we recommend they are no longer than 2m.”
  5. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Yea we went all through this last time Lee kicked off about it.

    1. As baz pointed out last time all of the above assumes an earth. I've shown you how pointless it is with a TT and your answer has been to drum up a load of regs from 7671. If this is a DNO requirement then WHERE is the information concerning TT's? I've asked till I'm blue in the face so why bother? There are all sorts of problems, where do you put your spike? How do you protect the tails? Why aren't they protected now regardless of length? What do you hope to achieve fitting a s/f that will do nothing? What rating RCD do you use? A 100ma won't provide shock protection will it. If it's a DNO requirement why aren't they telling you this?

    2. None of the above info contains the word must, it's all should. It's like me telling you whats in the OSG is regs. It's called a guide for a reason isn't it.

    3. All of the above quote the regs incorrectly, now even from the wrong edition. I've tried to convince you your not reading the regs correctly and so has Baz. Baz has 46 years in the industry so do you question him too? 7671 imposes NO limit on the tail length. Look in the GN on fault protection.

    4. If this is case for all DNO there where is the info for BG, for example. There must be loads of providers out there who don't have this information to hand. When I've called metering all they tell me is it's your electric, you pay for it, do what you want with it.

    5. Why are some 2m and others 3m? What sense does that make? Weird.

    6...etc probably I could make more points, like how the hell do the DNO actually police this rule anyway? but hey.. why bother?

    Your issue here, and this is what I have always maintained, is that your assuming that ALL sparks are too stupid to be able to recognize this situation and design the ctt to work they way that it should be designed to work, ie correct Zs for the fuse , tails in SWA, isolator near cut out. Your also assuming that all the DNO have made a blanket choice, ie "we refuse to let sparks use our cut out fuse and tails because they do not have the ability the think for themselves". They haven't. And they can't. Unless there is a contract or law in place to limit tail length they can only disconnected you if what your doing is unsafe. Indeed they might want you not to make the tails longer than 3m, it might well be desirable and sensible in pretty much mot cases, but they can't stop you unless the design is unsafe.

    Until you can see this for yourself then your acting on "faith". It's like me pointing out to the Catholics "how can there be a God if he decides to burn down Notre-Dame?" Their response would be that God is testing us. What is he testing you for? He is testing our faith. And so on. I think it's more likely, that on balance, that there isn't actually a god in the first place.
  6. Muzungu

    Muzungu Screwfix Select

    That of course depends upon how one defines "God", although I would consider it unlikely that "God", as defined by Catholicism (or any other religion), is unlikely to exist; that doesn't, of course, preclude "God" existing. Anyway, not a question to explore on a trade forum I think.
  7. WillyEckerslike

    WillyEckerslike Screwfix Select

    That depends on your trade. Vicarfix.com?
    Muzungu and Coloumb like this.
  8. spinlondon

    spinlondon Screwfix Select

    That is all just complete guff.
    I can’t be bothered to go through it.

    All you need to understand, is that the DNOs have their 3m rule because of Reg. 433.2.2.
  9. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    You can't be bothered because you can't answer. It's a standard get out clause when admitting losing an argument when trying not to lose face. "What your saying is guff, ergo I can't be bothered".

    Suit yourself.
  10. WillyEckerslike

    WillyEckerslike Screwfix Select

    I think you're taking on the wrong people. What have the DNOs said when you've raised their flawed approach with them?
  11. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    I already said. "We are not interested".
  12. WillyEckerslike

    WillyEckerslike Screwfix Select

    Sorry, missed that.
  13. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    It was not God. It was a fault in the unfused tails supplying the DB in the roof space.
  14. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    So now your saying the DNO's have to kowtow to 7671? You need to stop being delusional and get with the real world.
  15. spinlondon

    spinlondon Screwfix Select

    No that’s not the case at all.
    The problem is, that you have made so many varied inaccurate points that you might just as well delete the lot and start again.
    In Paragraph 1 of your little diatribe you state: “all of the above assumes an earth”.
    No it doesn’t.
    Then you say how you’ve pointed out how pointless it is with a TT.
    No you haven’t.
    You say I’ve drummed up a load of Regs from BS7671.
    You then ask where is the information concerning TTs, and say you’re blue in the face for asking.
    What information do you require and I suggest you stop holding your breath when asking.
    That way someone might actually hear you asking.

    Next you state there’s all sorts of problems, followed by a string of questions.
    You put your spike close to the installation.
    The tails are protected against overload by the Switch Fuse and against Earth Faults by double insulation.
    Because the IET says to provide protection, the device must be within 3m.
    I hope to achieve compliance with BS7671 and satisfy the requirements of the DNO.
    Who says that fitting a Switch Fuse will do nothing?
    I’ve always used a 100mA RCD.
    Yes a 100mA RCD will provide shock protection.

    You then ask, if it’s a DNO requirement, why aren’t they telling me this?

    Paragraph 2.
    You need to learn to read.

    Paragraph 3.
    In your opinion they are quoting the Regs incorrectly.
    Oh dear, they haven’t updated the Reg No.
    Yes you have tried, but it doesn’t matter whether I read them correctly or not. The DNOs read it their way and that’s the way they want it to be.
    Never said that BS7671 impose a limit on tail length.
    What BS7671 does limit is where a device for overload protection and a device for earth fault protection should be sited.

    Paragraph 4.
    I assume you mean British Gas?
    British Gas is not a DNO.
    I did provide a quote from the Association of Meter Operators, which includes British Gas and all the other providers.

    Paragraph 5.
    This is because they take the start of the 3m from the cut out, not from the meter.

    Paragraph 6.
    Yes I imagine you could make more pointless points.
    They police it when they come to make a connection.

    Last paragraph.
  16. spinlondon

    spinlondon Screwfix Select

    More guff.
    The law requires DNOs to refuse a connection to an installation if they believe it to be unsafe.
    The law says an installation which complies with BS7671 is deemed to be safe.
    If the DNO come to make a connection and they can see that Reg 433.2.2 has not been complied with, they may then believe the installation is unsafe.
    The then have to kowtow to the law and refuse a connection.
  17. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    That old chestnut. Well here it is...

    General conditions as to consumers
    27.—(1) No supplier shall be compelled to commence or, subject to regulation 28, to continue to give a supply to any consumer unless he is reasonably satisfied that each part of the consumer’s installation is so constructed, installed, protected and used, so far as is reasonably practicable, as to prevent danger and not to cause undue interference with the supplier’s system or with the supply to others.

    (2) Any consumer’s installation which complies with the provisions of the Institution of Electrical Engineers Regulations shall be deemed to comply with the requirements of this regulation as to safety.

    So what happens if the consumers installation is outside the scope of 7671
    • The circuit voltage is greater than 1,000 VAC, or 1,500 VDC
    • The installation is related to machines (aircraft, boats, vehicles, trains, industrial equipment, lifts)
    • Mines and quarries
    • Distribution of electricity, lightning conductors, electric fences
    Where do they get their supply form? Some sort of osmosis? The power of thought perhaps?

    That's why it's split in two. It's not both it's either.

    Anyway I thought you weren't participating any more.
  18. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    I'm not going to do a like for like reply on any of that. Everyone can make up their own minds as we have been over this a stupid number of times.

    Like I say your assuming that the REC, DNO, suppliers, Jo Bloggs, the IEE, Parliament or just about anyone to do with the electrical industry has assumed that all the sparks working in it are too stupid to make up their own mind regarding meter tail length so that someone, somewhere has regulated that running them over three 3m is some massive breach of some non-existent regulation somewhere then that's your choice. Suit yourself. I'm smarter than that.

    ps. You can't enact into law 7671 as it's British Standard. If this was the case the according to you, any consumers installation that doesn't comply with 7671, by law should no longer be supplied with electric. I would say what, currently 0.01% of all UK homes currently comply with the 18th. So what about everyone else? How do they get their supply? God?
  19. spinlondon

    spinlondon Screwfix Select

    Don’t know where you got that from?
    Here’s the new version:
    Connections to installations or to other networks
    25.—(1) No person shall make or alter a connection from a distributor’s network to a consumer’s installation, a street electrical fixture or to another distributor’s network without that distributor’s consent, unless such consent has been unreasonably withheld.

    (2) A distributor shall not give his consent to the making or altering of the connection referred to in paragraph (1), where he has reasonable grounds for believing that—

    (a)the consumer’s installation, street electrical fixture or other distributor’s network fails to comply with British Standard Requirements or these Regulations; or

    (b)the connection itself will not be so constructed, installed, protected and used or arranged for use, so as to prevent as far as is reasonably practicable, danger or interruption of supply.

    (3) Any dispute between a person to whom paragraph (1) refers and the distributor, arising from delay in giving or refusal to give the consent required by paragraph (1) by virtue of the provisions of paragraph (2), which cannot be resolved between them may be referred by either of them to the Secretary of State who shall appoint a suitably qualified person to determine the dispute and to order as he thinks fit whether the costs (or any part of them) associated with the determination should be borne by one or other of the parties.

    (4) Following the determination by the person appointed by the Secretary of State, the distributor shall grant or withhold the consent required in paragraph (1) as appropriate, subject to any conditions which the person appointed by the Secretary of State may stipulate in his determination.
  20. spinlondon

    spinlondon Screwfix Select

    I not assuming any such thing.
    I’m just explaining the reason behind the 3m rule.

    I suggest you nip up to Scotland and tell them that.
    As far as I am aware Scotland have enacted BS7671 into law.
    Though as I’ve never suggested that BS7671 has been enacted into law, I don’t understand why you made the comment.

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