A good wireless thermostat for a conventional oil boiler

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by DavidDavidson, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. DavidDavidson

    DavidDavidson Member

    My grandmother moved into a new house recently and the current heating timer/on off switch (there's no thermostat) is mounted in the electrical cabinet, which is about 7 foot off the ground. As such she needs a step ladder if she wants to turn in on her central heating, not only is this awkward, but it's dangerous too (she had a fall just over a year ago and fractured her pelvis in two places); so I've decided on getting a wireless thermostat (if you can get ones for conventional boilers with a setting for hot water and another channel for the radiators) however the current system just turns both on at once, though it has one wire leading in and two leading out, so I assume one is for hot water and one is for the radiators; though I'm not really a boiler expert.

    If anyone has any suggestions for a good reliable wireless thermostat that's simple and easy to use (my gran is very tech illiterate) for less than £100 I'd really appreciate it.
    I would assume that since the boiler is an old oil boiler it runs on 240v mains.

    Hope I got the thread in the right spot, there wasn't any boiler section and I'm only dealing with the thermostat so I figured here was the best spot.
     
  2. MGW

    MGW Well-Known Member

    Honeywell Y6630D has worked well for me, you want two things, one some anti-hysteresis software, and two it fails safe. There are cheaper thermostats, but either they don't fail safe, i.e. if batteries go flat they can stick on, or have no anti hysteresis software i.e. as it approaches target temperature it starts to switch off/on so it does not over shoot. But does not control domestic hot water.

    With a gas boiler you don't want anti hysteresis as the boiler modulates and that software upsets the modulation of boiler, but with oil you don't modulate boilers so it is required.

    If wired you can use a much cheaper thermostat. I love the Nest e (where no domestic hot water i.e. combi boiler) and Nest gen 3 when also controlling hot water, as very simple dial to alter day to day, but has all the programmer functions built in. With oil likely Hive is better because the TRV heads work better.

    But before you pay out will programmable TRV heads do what you want with no wiring? The first thing is how does the domestic hot water work? If thermosyphon with no tank thermostat as mine is, the Nest thermostat can fire up boiler in the summer, giving an hour heating or so, but in winter there is no control, if it has a thermostat on the tank with a motorised valve, then you can use a programmer and/or the thermostat to control it, so using a simple on/off switch for domestic hot water, and programmable thermostat for the house.

    I fitted a horstmann programmable thermostat for my mother, it was cheap, and yet seemed to have all the automated functions you could wish for, however one mother had a problem using it, and two when batteries went flat it stuck on, and found mother in a room at 28 deg C. Wish in hind sight I had fitted Nest, easy for her to simply turn dial up/down, and I could have remotely monitored and at least seen when there was a problem.
     
  3. ajohn

    ajohn Well-Known Member

    We have used a Salus for a number of years now. No problems and all sorts of specs are available. The one we use is dead simple, We program it for 2 temperatures. Ones excessive frost protection 14C that it reverts to when ever a heating period has ended. If we want heating on when it's at 14C it's just a case of putting a finger on an lcd type touch dial and "rotating" it to what ever temperature is wanted. Several 14C periods are set. Those can end a manual setting - hope I am remembering that feature correctly.

    Several years of use and the battery in the remote unit is still fine.

    They offer several different specs - even get in touch with it via the web if I remember correctly via a mobile phone.

    You could of course look at the boiler manual and wire in a conventional mechanical thermostat.

    Something I have noticed on our heating is the change since it was initially installed. As we have TRV's I asked for it to be set up pump running all of the time and no thermostate. It provides very even heating. Having gone back to pure thermostat control it isn't so good. Trouble with pump all of the time when the heating is on is the lifetime of the pumps. It's a worcester and they did use an unusual make of pump that lasted a fair number of years used like this. The others don't. ;) Heating costs have to be considered as well but not totally sure that there is much difference. ;) We are getting older and could do with more even heating.

    John
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  4. DavidDavidson

    DavidDavidson Member

    Thanks for the suggestions, so far I probably should have been a bit more clear about what exactly I wanted as it's for my grandmother who is very, very tech illiterate, she's on her eighties and something as simple as possible would be best. Really all that would be needed is a wireless on/off button, however I've never seen one so simple and every one I've seen has a built in thermostat, hence why I said wireless thermostat. My grandmother has never used a thermostat before, never used the timing features on her previous heating timer and has only turned the heating on when she needs it, the only reason I feel a thermostat would be necessary is.because most have built in frost protection and she prefers to use next to no heating (though she turns it on to prevent pipes from freezing, but she's getting a bit more forgetful these days).
    As for a wired thermostat being.cheaper, I'm a DIY type person and far from a professional electrician (though I've seen the wiring diagrams for wireless controllers and had a peek at the wiring in mine and wiring one up would be within my skill set) so getting the wiring to run from the cabinet in the kitchen, to her living room or hallway would probably be an ugly mess of trunking at best.

    I know when the landlord put a gas boiler into my house a year ago I got an EPH wireless thermostat and it seems like it would be perfect for my grandmother's needs, however as I have a combi boiler (and hers is an oil boiler) turning it on would heat both the radiators and warm up the water, which would be a bit wasteful.

    Something reliable but also extremely simple (she had to write down instructions for her previous heating timer and mark which button to press to switch the heating on with a marker) is what I'm looking for.
     
  5. MGW

    MGW Well-Known Member

    I can see the problem, my mother would use the thermostat as a switch, the Honeywell Y6630D fitted however has pegs inside so I could set min/max, it was in hall so set max 19 degs C and min 16 degs C so even if she turned it down it was not too cold.

    However one has to consider why we have a room thermostat, there are two different reasons, one is to control room temperature seems obvious, but other is to stop boiler cycling.

    So to expend on boiler cycling, in the main today we use thermostat radiator valves (TRV) these control the room temperature, and if the water in boiler exceeds a set temperature it switches off, however this will result in warmer weather of boiler switching off/on all the time, so traditionally we fit a thermostat to the coolest ground floor room with no outside doors and no alternative heating to switch off heating as weather warms up.

    The thermostat in this case works better if it does not have anti hysteresis software.

    However I personally found a TRV marked *123456 is about as much use as a chocolate fire guard. I want my room set to 20 degs C, between 3 and 4 means nothing to me. So I fitted these [​IMG] the one I used was bluetooth so I did not need to bend down so £15 each, non bluetooth are around £10 each, so each room is programmed as to what temperature at what time of day or week. So wall thermostat just turns off boiler in warm weather, it does not control room temperature. OK to be fair I did need to adjust the lock shield valves a little when the TRV is fitted to return as radiator gets hot before heat reaches the TRV so unless lock shield adjusted they can over shoot.

    However once fitted and set, you can forget, rooms do not over heat any more. I actually broke the rules and fitted two wall thermostats one in hall and one in kitchen, mainly as sun in windows and wind direction altered heating, however once I fitted a TRV in the hall I found kitchen thermostat not required I set to holiday mode. However with a TRV and wall thermostat in same room, the two do need to match.

    So new house I fitted Nest and Energenie which link so turn the wall thermostat up or down and the TRV also auto turns up/down to match, but clearly that costs more.

    So wax TRV head £6, programmable electronic TRV head £10, with blue tooth £15, linked to wall thermostat £40 - £60 depending on wall thermostat. About the cheapest wall thermostat that can link to a TRV is Hive, and to be frank with an oil boiler Hive is possibly the best option.

    However now you move into how wired, since the central heating also does the domestic hot water (DHW) which programmer, or thermostat you use is linked to how pumps, motorised valves, and DHW thermostats are wired. In this house there is no thermostat on the DHW tank, so I needed the programmer to have volt free change over contacts for the DHW, as a result I could not use Hive, so I used Nest.

    So it is how the DHW is heated that dictated which wall thermostat I used, and Nest is double the price you have set as the limit. Since we have no idea how the central heating does your DHW no one can really advise on best system for the price. With systems like Tado and EvoHome they will work with nearly every boiler you can think of, but they cost, as you try to reduce the cost, so you also limit what they will work with, and also increase how complex it is to set up.

    A heating guy can install EvoHome and be sure it will work, but as you reduce the cost of thermostats and control gear, so it gets harder to set up, the basic wall thermostat [​IMG] at £20 can work well, it can also be a load of rubbish if not put in right place. It can only measure the temperature of one room. The [​IMG]Honeywell Y6630D to look at is the same as the cheap one but wireless, it is also nearly £100, in theory you could move it from room to room, however there is no stand for it, other more expensive do have stands [​IMG] but Nest e is around £180 and it is not designed to control DHW, Nest Gen 3 will control DHW but then even more expensive. So back to same question, how is the DHW controlled?
     
    DavidDavidson likes this.
  6. ajohn

    ajohn Well-Known Member

    Sounds like it's a gravity system for hot water. Bit of a pain as heating the hot water slows down the central heating warm up. Some people replace them with an oil combi. Probably an ideal option for older people. Main problem with those is time to hot actually flowing. That might be noticed but it will be cheaper to run than a gravity system. They are reckoned to be slower than gas combi's in this respect. Not sure how they compare price wise with a S or Y plan oil boiler.

    In terms of the existing boiler some people could simply jumper the boiler on off switch and put another one any where it was required or simply turn it's supply on and off. Some people switch the immersion heater on to get the central heating up to temperature more quickly. It may be possible to convert to S or Y plan so that hot water is independent. Depends on the boiler. It may well use the hot water to dump excess heat when what ever is up to temperature. That is what is going one when the pump is being run via a run on timer.

    Being oil means it doesn't have the "green" complications that gas has so systems can be simpler. I might work out as cheaper option because of that. Central heating control could then just be 2 thermostats. One for frost and one to set heating levels. Break the circuit of either with a switch and they can't turn the heating on. I would imagine that all oil fired use 240v controls and a rather simple circuit. Modern gas may not be, I don't know. The same could be done with an s or y plan oil boiler.

    The only other aspect is age of the system. It may have just been designed for back ground heating. Fixing that would need new radiators. I visit a place like this pretty regularly. Gravity hot water oil boiler. When it's really cold - light the fire - a multifuel one in this case usually run on coal.

    One thing to note about oil fired boilers - they do need servicing regularly. I know some one that set fire to their roof structure by not having it done. Could be that it was running a bit rich for some reason or it can just happen. Some people have the view that if the flame is blue all is ok. That approach needs a bit of caution.

    John
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  7. ajohn

    ajohn Well-Known Member

    Can't help looking when some one asks a question. Oil combi works out around 30% dearer than a system boiler. Straight heat probably cheaper and those may well be able to be installed Y plan style. Rip off on the combi. The other approach really needs a well insulated tank. Maybe how the price is justified. It seems many oil fired combi's have a small internal hot water store.

    John
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  8. DavidDavidson

    DavidDavidson Member

    Thanks for all the replies and a special thanks to MGW for going into so much detail.

    To answer a few things, the system is gravity fed hot water, the tank is in the very small attic. The house itself is a bungalow so hot water pressure is a bit lower than a two story house.

    The boiler is an old oil boiler that's in a boiler house, accessible from outdoors. OIf I were to have to put a date it, I would assume it was made in the late 80s or early 90s and has been serviced since then.

    My grandmother plans on getting a gas boiler at some point (probably within a year or so) and this is one reason that I've set the budget limit to £100, the thermostat may only be needed to get her through this winter, maybe the next. Secondly my grandmother is very tight with her money (in ways; however she's thinking of upgrading her current double glazed windows to triple glazed ones "to save money") and when I asked her what her budget was she said £50, which I doubt would get anything half way good so I upped it to 100.
    If the price were to exceed £100 she would likely downright refuse to have one fitted and take the risk of using a step ladder to turn the heating on and off; she wouldn't accept me paying for a better one either, she hates feeling like she's "in debt" to even though she's family and buying a good one would give me peace of mind, which would be worth it. I could buy a more expensive one and lie about the price, but if she found out that I'd paid out of pocket she would be pretty annoyed and upset.

    As for radiator thermostats, while I think they're great I don't think I could ever get my gran to go for them. She has always had two settings for radiators; on and off. Which led to some rooms being absolutely freezing in her last house as she just closed every door; as I've said she's a bit tight with her money and will do nearly anything to save energy, including wearing a coat indoors in the winter with an interior temperature of about 12-14°c, I've tried to explain to her that it isn't healthy for her to live like that, but I usually get rebuffed and told how amazingly low her electricity and (previously) gas bills are/were so she would see zero use in radiator thermostats, even at such an affordable price.

    The Honeywell Y6630D looks good, only issue is that it's a dial thermostat and my grandmother hasn't ever used one in her life, it'll take a bit of explaining to let her know that it isn't like the volume dial on a stereo but instead an on/off switch that goes off when the room reaches the desired temperature.

    Finally, I've an EPH "Combipack 4" (https://www.ephcontrols.com/section/progammable-rf-thermostat-receiver/) in my house (landlord had it put in) and I'm curious if it would work with an oil boiler. It's easy to use, has a big display, comes with a stand and you can flip down the panel to turn the boiler on and off with the touch of a button. It also comes with anti frost which I think can be programmed to a specific temperature. (Edit: it can't) However I have no idea if it would work with her boiler, or.if there are other, better alternatives out there.
    Edit; frost protection on the EPH one isn't adjustable and unless it's in auto (which my grandmother wouldn't want) there would be no way to set a minimum temperature, so that's going to the back of the pile.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  9. MGW

    MGW Well-Known Member

    I have an oil boiler in this house, and how the previous people used it I have not a clue, it has two pumps one for granny flat and one for main house, and uses thermo-syphon for domestic hot water, there was a thermostat down stairs which turned on the water pump, and there was a programmer in main house which turned the whole system off/on, it was marked at DHW and CH once or twice a day, but in fact it did exactly the same which every was selected it just turned whole system off/on. To get central heating in main house one had to go to granny flat and plug in the pump which was simply on a 13A plug and socket. There is no tank thermostat, it is simply controlled by how long it is on. I could hardly believe what I found.

    It is still far from perfect, I would prefer to have a thermostat on the water tank, but at least it can be controlled without walking outside to plug it in. The problem is normally one would have a thermostat on the water tank, C-Plan_old.jpg and that thermostat uses both normally open and normally closed contacts, so to use a programmer without that cylinder stat, you need a set of contacts with access to the common independent to line supply to work the programmer, very few have this option, the idea is to just heat the DHW you simply do not turn on the pump, in a house it does not work very well, as the CH will to some extent thermo syphon, however in a bungalow it would work better.

    However the point is there is more than a simple thermostat, and as it stands we really don't have a clue as to what you have. You can't work out what you want, until you know what you have.
     
  10. DavidDavidson

    DavidDavidson Member

    I'll have to get a lift up to her house and see exactly what she has, I don't have a car myself and she lives about 5 1/2 miles away so I'll see if I can get a lift from my mother up to her house at some point.
    I figured it would be a whole lot simpler and that all I would need to do is remove the timer/controller (which doesn't allow you to select between heating and hot water, IIRC) when I was up last I just had a look at how the controller was wired up and it had mains voltage running in to it from a switch, which was in turn wired up to the RCD. The controller had 2 leads coming out which I had assumed would would be for heating and hot water, however now that I think about it the burner itself needs power to run, so one lead probably runs to a single pump and the other runs to the burner; though this is just a (semi) educated guess.

    I'll go up and have a better look and if that's the case I'll probably go with the Honeywell stat.
     
  11. Alan sherriff

    Alan sherriff Member

    It sounds like most elderly people she just puts Heating and hot water when she requires I would leave the boiler in the on mode and find a way of switching on low leval as she manages o/k except for height
    As she is elderly and usually not to clever with modern controls and plus the boiler is old I would pursue that avenue
     
  12. ajohn

    ajohn Well-Known Member

    With that sort if system people set the boiler water temperature to suite. Lower in the summer when heating isn't required and higher in the winter when that is needed for the central heating to work correctly. Then the timer controls when it's on and off. Straight from a bloke that services and installs in an area where there are stacks of them about. It sounds like people often go for high pressure hot water tanks if they upgrade. Hot water usually has priority so initial heat up time is similar to gravity / thermosyphon. Heat loss from modern tanks is pretty low.

    Central heating is controlled simply by running the pump when it's needed. That's what the room stat does. The stat in the boiler sets hot water temperature. Not much of a problem really as all of the ones I have seen are floor standing and easy to get at twice a year,

    If a separate system is needed for a granny flat and that has a separate pump it should also have a separate room stat. Pass on what happens if both stats set a demand for heating but if the boiler has sufficient kw should be ok really. Oddly fitting 2 pumps in parallel used to be a dodge to speed heat up time up. Increased water flow so the boiler cycles less often while getting the water and radiators up to full temperature.

    It is probably possible to convert these systems to use a modern tank with a thermostat on the tank. It should just be a case of adding motorised valves, new tank and wiring for this mode of operation. The need for a run on timer might cause horrific problems though. Best place to dump excess heat in the boiler is likely to be the hot water tank. An A or B motorised valve might do that automatically if the boiler has one built in. That's how our heat store system works. No switches and extra wires coming out of the valve and when unenergised flow goes to hot water heating. The room stat energises it. Pump is running when ever there is any demand. When the demand ends the pump runs for a further couple of mins.

    Run on timers rated at 10amps used for all sorts of things including delayed lights turn off are available on ebay for a couple of quid. :) For if some one is feeling adventurous.

    John
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  13. MGW

    MGW Well-Known Member

    This is what my plumber said, he said putting a motorised valve on the DHW could cause problems because there is no run on. So I had to design/modify a system that had motorised valves on the CH but no valves on the DHW which in summer is controlled simply by the time it runs.

    I have posted the wiring diagram before, but it will not help this guy as it was designed to work with two pumps and valves. However it seems likely it will need more than a simple thermostat.

    Having said that my dad's central heating before it was swapped for a combi boiler had just a simple timer, he would set it to run twice a day, and if cold press the boost button, no thermostat either in room or on tank. Pressing boost was used just like in old days he would put on a shovel of coal. Only when the cold water tank sprang a leak was it changed.

    He did try electric fires, however with an electric fire the room slowly gets hotter and hotter, and until one stands up and walks out of room and back in, one does not realise how hot it had become, so a push switch like this [​IMG] which can be set to run for 2 hours when pressed would emulate putting on a shovel of coal. Not how I would do it, I want it all automated, set and forget system, but be it a flick switch or timer, if that's what she wants then so be it.
     
  14. DavidDavidson

    DavidDavidson Member

    Sorry I haven't replied in a few days. I came down with a particularly bad cold and was out of the running for a bit.
    As I said, I'm a DIYer and I appreciate the replies.
    @MGW I did look at your wiring diagram and I can understand it (I'm not sure if you would find that surprising, though half of my physics class couldn't wire up a standard UK plug in year 12 (ages 15-16) and I've seen some depressingly poor DIY projects done before so "DIYer" probably carries a black mark with it), I figured that switching out the time controller in the wiring diagram (there's a basic digital time controller there, I've not had a chance to get up and visit yet or I could give model numbers, pictures and much more info) and I figured that it would be simple enough to remove the time controller (after turning everything off and then using a mains tester to be doubly sure that I don't end up a statistic) and wire in the new, wireless controller.
    The only thing that I was unsure about was the fact that the boiler was oil fired and I was curious whether I could get hot water and heating separately (though I understand now that it may be more complicated than that and there may even just be one pump handling both hot water and the radiators) if at all possible could you explain why using a wireless controller would be a bad idea, use of layman's terms would be appreciated, though with the magic of Google I can educate myself even if you don't use them, so maybe better not to; I might learn something. :)
     
  15. MGW

    MGW Well-Known Member

    With a wireless controller unless you have some fail safe system built in, if you lose the signal the it can get stuck either heating or cooling, as you pay more so it has a fail safe system they add other extras, in the main anti hysteresis software. What the anti hysteresis software does with an off/on thermostat is to start switching the boiler off/on before it reaches the set temperature, is slowly changed the ratio between on and off times (called mark/space) so it does not over shoot, all very well with a non condensing boiler, but messes up the modern boiler.

    However you say oil, so likely not condensing so as long as a fail safe not a problem, so the [​IMG] Honeywell Y6630D shown has fail safe and also anti-hysteresis software, and you can set the stops giving max and min and my mother used it like a switch, up to max I had set if cold, down to min I had set if hot, so hall where it was placed never got too hot or too cold but she felt she was in control.

    However having the hall at right temperature did not mean other rooms also at the right temperature, so to problems, other rooms getting too hot easy, fitted a electronic TRV which I set program of, and it stopped other rooms over heating, however other rooms being too cool was more of a problem, hall radiator large, which was needed to reheat hall after front door opened, but it could get hall to temperature before rest of house, no amount of adjusting the lock shield valve helped, number of visitors using front door and wind direction changed if open too wide, or closed too far.

    In the end I fitted a TRV to the hall radiator, this worked, open door and hall cool, valve opened and hall soon reheated, but before it hit the set temperature on the upper limit of the wall thermostat the TRV would close, so took a long time to get the last degree C giving rest of house time to heat up, however it took a long time to set that TRV spot on, the wall thermostat and TRV had to be near enough same temperature.

    Now with the likes of Nest, Hive, EvoHome and Tado the TRV can be linked to wall thermostat, however you seem to want to do it on the cheap? To my mind the *123456 on the standard TRV is useless to set it up unless you live in the house, I paid £40 each for Energenie wifi thermostats, these allowed me to set to 20 deg C not some random number, however since then I have found the stand alone programmable TRV which start at £10, I got £15 model with bluetooth as don't want to kneel down at each radiator to alter settings.

    But buy a Honeywell Y6630D or a [​IMG] Cassellie eQ-3 Smart Thermostat and if they don't your spending out again. I have 4 [​IMG] and 5 of the eQ-3 bluetooth and a Nest gen3 thermostat which links to the Energenie plus the hub so around £500 worth of control, that clearly exceeds what you want to pay.

    So if you want to keep cost down, then hard wire programmable thermostat can be cheapest there is as no worries about loosing radio link, and if still not good enough add eQ-3 but not Screwfix as too expensive.

     
    DavidDavidson likes this.
  16. DavidDavidson

    DavidDavidson Member

    @MGW
    Thanks, you've really thought this out and I greatly appreciate it. I guess I'll go with the Honeywell, it definitely seems to be the best recommendation and won't do any damage to the existing boiler, or cause it to cycle on when the battery runs out.
    I would go for a more expensive option like the nest though the problem is twofold, firstly my grandmother is quite the penny pincher, which isn't a bad thing and secondly she will be switching to gas at her earliest convenience (probably within the year, health permitting of course; touch on wood she'll be fine, she does forget some things but is perfectly able to get busses to the city centre and back out to the suburbs with no help except for the paper bus timetable and on the whole likes to care for herself) and when that is being done I may talk her into upgrading to a nest smart stat simply so I can make sure her home is warm at the right times of day and put the heating on (from my distant home via the nest connecting to her wifi and the remote login features) in case she starts to forget more things in a year or two however if she has ever went cold it's because she's wanted to save on a bill and not due to lack of remembering, so far; though she is getting older.

    As for the radiator stats, I have a feeling she would hate them, she prefers the twist controls on the radiators so she can turn off spare rooms and the like and she always kept her living room valves wide open, but they are definitely quality of life items to consider for her later years, maybe one in the living room and one in her bedroom.

    So the Honeywell sounds like the perfect stat for now and I'm sure that in a year's time or so when she switches to gas of I keep the boxes and manuals I can probably get about 50% of the initial price back if I sell it on Gumtree and put that toward a nest and explain things better to my grandmother then; she's a very tightly strung person and moving house hasn't done her any good and she doesn't like the fact that the house isn't "her" house yet as she likes antique furniture and fittings while the previous owner was all halogen lamps and 90s silver paint. but moving to a bungalow will in the long run; the staircase is the most dangerous thing in your house after all.

    I get what you mean that the hallway may not be the best place, however it's at the halfway mark between the living room and her bed. I'll definitely discuss where she wants it placed and explain that it will control the temperature for that area only, so some rooms may be warmer or colder, unless there's a radiator stat installed.
     
  17. MGW

    MGW Well-Known Member

    The cheap TRV head [​IMG] that dial/button in centre is a boost button, pressing it turns on TRV to 80% for 5 minutes, enough time to get radiator hot if boiler is running then it reverts to standard setting, the unit is stand alone, I am using bluetooth version to save my bending down specially as side mounted not upright, but they still have the manual controls, it also has a single button one to right of dial that switches between comfort and eco, you can set both the comfort and eco settings so one push of button will swap between the two temperatures, this means she will feel in control, but you can set the two temperatures. Seen non bluetooth for £10, I use bluetooth at £15.

    I could not get my mother to understand, she did have alzheimer's disease so only to be expected, and she had never fiddled with the TRV so that was OK, I set the hall thermostat turned up to stop at same temperature as TRV so she used just like a switch, she did not know there were adjustable stops behind the cover limiting how low or high it was set so she never tried to alter them, it worked.
     

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