A self-fulfilling prophecy

Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by Devil's Advocate, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    is likely to be Trump's latest pronouncement on Jerusalem.

    What will his reckless and arrogant declaration do? Almost certainly lead to bloodshed. Which he will then claim as making his point - "See? They don't deserve to share that city."

    The repellent, loathsome stinkhole. So beloved by some on here.
     
  2. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    It's a foolish decision. As much as I support Israel vs the muderus Islamic cult, this is a stupid and vulgar decision.
     
  3. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    Palestinians are not a murderous Islamic cult.

    In many ways they are like the IRA - driven to it.

    And even then it's a small minority.

    I wonder what the number of casualties are on both sides?
     
  4. Isitreally

    Isitreally Active Member

    Who's advised him though???

    I'm sure he wouldn't understand enough about the whole situation to make this type of decision on his own.
     
  5. fillyboy

    fillyboy Well-Known Member


    On the plus side, at least it's taken your mind off Brexit, albeit I suspect, only briefly.
     
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  6. Jackoftrades

    Jackoftrades Well-Known Member


    It was part of his electioneering. Now needs to carry it out to keep that support onside.

    What a world leader he is.

    You want out of brexit and the usa as our best friend and trade partner too.

    You didnt see any of this type stuff coming? Or you did and its ok ?
     
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  7. fillyboy

    fillyboy Well-Known Member

    It's been American foreign policy since 1995 but Clinton, Bush and Obama found it easier to ignore the policy. (by presidential waiver)

    Jerusalem IS the capital of Israel and American law requires that their embassy is located in a country's capital.

    Why suggest that it's all about Trump, there are two other players, Benjamin Netanyahu and Mohammad bin Salman, and I would imagine it's all about
    drawing Iran out into the open.
     
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  8. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    Ahh , driven to retaliate against the Israeli retaliation at having rocket after rocket fired across the border. Is this the minority who fire these rockets from school playgrounds and hospitals? You know the ones, the rocket launches that the locals don't actually ever see. ;);)
     
  9. fillyboy

    fillyboy Well-Known Member

    400 a day at one point JJ, but, who's counting?, certainly not DA.
     
  10. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    Do some reading, JJ.

    It'll help.
     
  11. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    Who's counting bodies?

    Who is in the 'wrong'.
     
  12. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    Thank you, Filly, for exposing - again - your support for Trump.

    That comes as no surprise whatsoever.
     
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  13. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    I wasn't referring to the Palestinians as in all the people, but their leaders and ruling "party" Hezbollah. They are a murderous cult, driven by the religion that has caused so much suffering through the world - Islam. Israel is not blameless especially building settlements on land that isn't theirs, but when one side is launching rockets and gawd knows what else at another country, the primary blame is pretty clear to me.

    Quite how these two sides are reconciled heaven only knows (who's heaven tho...) but ceasing terrorist activates would be a start.
     
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  14. Jackoftrades

    Jackoftrades Well-Known Member


    That is the crunch.

    1st you have to define terrorism.

    Is it simply , standing up for beliefs that you dont believe in? So anybody opposing that view with force or action is a terrorist?

    Dont forget the french resistance were terrorists too. Would you condemn them?

    Is Trump a terrorist? Is he forcing N K to do something?

    And before all the abuse starts, I dont support terrorism either.
     
  15. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    I'd go with this off 'net: Terrorism = the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

    The actions of Hezbollah clearly fall into this category, Israel building settlements not, as its not "violent".

    Use of "violence and intimidation" is the key here; standing up for beliefs that you dont believe in isn't terrorism.

    Take Islamists; they're not necessarily terrorists as they want to enforce some interpretation of Islam on the rest of society perhaps via political means. The west is against this. Violent Islamists are Jihadists - they're terrorists.
     
  16. Jackoftrades

    Jackoftrades Well-Known Member


    Not arguing against your view, I honestly dont know enough of the middle east problems, and Israel issues to take any side.

    But dont forget, 1 mans terrorsist is another mans freedom fighter.

    It all depends who agrees or disagrees with your views. Its why I included the French Resistance.

    Terrorism is 1 of those words that automatically pits you against the perpetrator, without really knowing )or even wanting to know), the reasons behind it.

    It is a very complicated situation, that is certain. Has Trump helped do you think? That is the real question in my mind.
     
  17. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    I think calling even Hezbollah a 'murderous cult' is largely unjustified. You have to look at what they are fighting for, and Islam is only a part of that equation - and no more so than the Jew's "gawd-given" right to that land is either.

    It has, I think, very strong parallels the IRA both in terms of land ownership, sovereignty (dare I use that word...) and - yes - religion. Like, I suspect, you, I grew up with the 'troubles' being a regular item on the news, and my instinctive hatred of the IRA was pretty intense. After all, they were seemingly the ones carrying out all these hellish killings against innocent people. How can you 'kill' for a piece of land?

    How naive I was. A couple of books worth reading - Rebel Heart by Kevin Toolis to get an feeling for the repression the republicans feel, and The Shankhill Butchers to see that nastiness ain't peculiar to the 'Taigs' will do for starters.

    At one point I could barely keep the contents of my stomach down whenever Adams - or even worse, McGuinness - came on the screen. But, they have achieved what they set out to, and who can really question that the aims of their struggle wasn't a 'just' one. I believed McGuinness latterly when he said 'The killings were a necessary means to an end - I really wish they hadn't been necessary'.

    Killing is 'easy'. It is both impossibly difficult and shockingly easy. Once you have a 'cause', and you see 'others' as your enemy, then killing becomes wanton.

    In the M-E, never mind the 'rockets' being hurled - count the dead bodies. Measure the theft of land. Note the repression.

    The Israelis are significantly the guilty party. I wish killings weren't 'necessary'. But they have nothing else.

    Ditto the ANC a few decades ago. What makes someone a 'terrorist' largely comes down to which side you are on.
     
  18. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    I disagree - violence is inexcusable, whatever the motives or reasons behind it. Body count isn't a good way to measure "blame", you need to look at the motives behind it and what each side is trying to achieve.

    Look at it this way - what would happen if the Palestinians had the ability to totally eradicate Israel? Probably Israel would be eradicated. But we already know what would happen if Israel had the ability to totally eradicate the Palestinians, since they already have that ability today. 'nuff said.
     
  19. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    I think when I mentioned Hezbollah, I meant Hamas.
     
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  20. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    That is simplistic in the extreme.

    And you are welcome to your opinion on how the two sides would respond given the means to totally eradicate the other.

    The Israelis don't nuke the Arabs 'cos they're kind hearted? Jeepers.
     

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