A self-fulfilling prophecy

Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by Devil's Advocate, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    Did I say that? No. The Israelis don't nuke (or bomb) the Arabs 'cos they don't have murderous intent. Same can't be said for the other side.
     
  2. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    Amnesty International: "Humiliation, discrimination and oppression" - the facts of life in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

    Oh, and around 2,104 Palestinian deaths including 1,462 civilians, of whom 495 were children and 253 women.

    Perish the thought the Israelis ever actually develop murderous intent.

    A question - of the two sides, which has cause to feel hatred towards the other?
     
  3. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    So that makes murder and terrorism ok does it? You're coming across as a Jihadist sympathiser DA.

    If a country (Palestine) can't get what it wants through peaceful means (and I agree its suffering some level of humiliation, discrimination and oppression), its OK to use violence is it?
     
  4. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    Did I say it was ok? Of course not - don't even go there.

    Tell me the difference between the ANC, the IRA and the Palestinians?

    Isn't there something in this world you would - literally - fight for, Bodge? Like your freedom and your family and your land?

    Please don't single out the Palestinians. Especially when they are being murdered and repressed by the very powerful, USA-backed, Israelis.

    Tell me - what is Israel doing with it's 'power'? Using it responsibly?
     
  5. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    Sorry I thought it was the Palestinians firing rockets and blowing up bombs to murder Israelis, my bad :rolleyes:

    Country defends itself against murdering jihadists and they get blamed for murdering. :oops:
     
  6. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    How many people have been killed by Palestinian rockets in comparison to the 2k+ Palestinians - mostly civilians - killed by Israelis?

    I understand it's roughly 30.

    And - I ask you again - who is the aggrieved party here? Who has just cause for fighting?

    I really don't get why you are on the side of the Israelis on this issue, Bodge. They are taking land that is simply not theirs to take, and doing it in the name of their gawd.

    I have been to Israel, riding bikes around there with an Israeli who - like the others - had to serve their time in the army. What would they do if a child threw a stone at them? They'd bulldoze the family house to the ground. And the guy told us this with a sense of perfect justification.
     
  7. fillyboy

    fillyboy Well-Known Member

    I lived in Israel for a year back in the seventies, most of the time at a small kibbutz on the edge of the Golan heights, a month or so travelling round the country, mainly the Sinai Desert which The Israelis held at that point in time after the most recent invasion, (since handed back to Egypt in a move toward peace talks) and some time working in a bar in Tel Aviv to earn some money for a ticket home.

    There were three rocket attacks in the North during my time there, scary but a bigger risk was more likely land mines littering the Golans. The people I befriended were a proud people, Nationalists (I know you hate that word) who loved their country and whose fathers had patrolled the borders at night on horseback in the late forties/early fifties.

    I found them a remarkable and resourceful people who transformed a wasteland into an agricultural paradise. The inflation rate when I was there was eye watering because something like 50% of their GDP was spent on defence, note that word, defence. There had been three wars shortly before my arrival all of which were instigated by the 'Arabs'.

    They can be ruthless I'll grant you, they have to be, every country around them has a sworn purpose of driving them into the sea, but I have nothing but admiration for a country who came from defending their country on horseback with M1 carbines to becoming a nuclear power whilst pushing back invading armies superior in numbers to theirs.

    I spent a week in the old walled city of Jerusalem, a beautiful place, unfortunately I didn't get to see the place where 'Brian' was crucified, I was too wrapped up in the history of the place, the beauty, the atmosphere and a dancer from Bournemouth who I'd carelessly fallen in love with.

    In those days I don't believe they were building settlements on occupied land, and it's not something I'm particularly comfortable with, I also know a lot of Israelis are not comfortable with it.

    A peace settlement is complicated and remember it has come tantalisingly close in the past, two states, with East and West Jerusalem being the respective capitals of each state, my understanding is the Arabs queered it at the last minute placing demands on Israel they knew were impossible. Maybe, just maybe, Trumps move might force the Arabs to sit down at the table and reach a solution, although I somehow doubt it, the Arabs just wont quite be able to do it, to make that little push, to compromise.

    As I said earlier, all the Israelis I met were a proud and industrious people who wanted nothing more than to enjoy life and raise their children in an environment of peace, and that was just a few years after their Olympic squad was massacred in Germany, whilst the German Government turned a blind eye despite a tip off, and Mossad rescued a plane load of 'jews' from Entebbe.

    Despite all this, I never met an Israeli who spent his time bulldozing arabs houses because someone threw a stone at them, maybe it was a different era.

    What did my year in Israel teach me?, two things:

    1. If you live to be 100, and travel the entire world, you will never, ever see a sight anywhere that approaches the beauty of seeing the sun rise from the top of Mount Sinai.

    2. Never trust an arab.
     
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  8. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    That's a good tale, Filly, and I can see where you are coming from.

    It's very easy to - as I also have done during my short trip - get the gut feeling in that country that the Israelis are advanced and 'civilised' and the Arabs not - you only have to walk around the Arab quarter of Jerusalem for a quick picture of that. So it's 'true' to a large extent. But why?

    Consider the resources the Israelis were given to set up their country - they hardly built it themselves from scratch, did they? And their continued support from the largest military power in the world.

    And for all their defence of their rights and all their self-justification and all their military power, the unavoidable fact is that they are simply bullies when it comes to the Palestinians. They are wrong in what they do. And the reason for that is (a) the Jews believe their land is gawd-given (soz, it ain't) and (b) they share your innate bigotry.

    For all their third-world situation, I think you'd find the vast majority of Palestinians to be more sincere in their welcome than many Jews. And that is whilst suffering all the persecution that they do.

    'Arabs' are not different to other humans beings, you know.
     
  9. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    Yes the Israelis are bullies, agreed. But they don't go round violently attacking others on the offensive, they react defensively to violent and terrorist attacks on them. The Palestinians are an oppressed people, but they react violently and that is unacceptable, period. Body count is irrelevant, intent is what matters. There are 30,000 people killed in car accidents annually in the USofA, why are we not all up in arms about that? And what about those killed by US people with guns? Numbers killed by terrorists is small in comparison but for some reason we're all deeply concerned about that.

    'Arabs' is a term I wouldn't use, it just refers to people from a particular region. I wouldn't use Muslims either. But Islamists is better, as it refers to people with a belief in Islam and who are trying to force their beliefs on others. And I won't have any of that. Hamas in particular, they're doing it, violently. Terrorists. I don't see the Israelis acting like this.

    Just because a group of people are oppressed isn't an excuse for them to behave like terrorists, and you're making it sound like it is.
     
  10. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    I think there's two issues you are not addressing; (1) the Jews are also driven by their ideology, and (b) they are blatantly and destructively taking Palestinian land they were not given as part of the agreement and are not entitled to.

    As for violence never being 'acceptable'? I once thought the same, as I said about the IRA. But you do have to look at the context of these situations - usually an overwhelmingly powerful side oppressing - often in the most thuggish and brutal way - a much less powerful group.

    Be it in South Africa, Ireland or the Middle East.

    I think it's too easy to criticise those taking violent action - unless you are also prepared to criticise Mandela.
     
  11. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    I agree with both those points. Israel is not blameless, far from it, but they are not the terrorists.

    And I think it is easy to criticise those taking violent action, there is never an excuse. Not the Palestinians/Hamas, not the IRA, not Mandela.
     
  12. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    Never an excuse? How idealistic, Bodge. But - honestly & sadly - unrealistic on our planet.

    Do I take it you think Mandela could have achieved what he did with purely peaceful means? They'd have simply 'listened' to him?

    Can I suggest you do some impartial reading on atrocities carried out by the Israeli military in response to Palestinian attacks? See how balanced the responses are.

    And never ever lose sight of who the actual aggressors here are. Who is taking who's land? Who is repressing who?

    Perhaps you'll see how the roughly 2,000:30 score has been reached.

    Then tell me the Israelis are only responding to 'provocation'.
     
  13. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    That says it all. Israel is responding to attacks, they're not instigating the attacks. Jeepers, its like blaming the police for a Jihadist suicide bombing because they didn't prevent it. I'm focused on the primary cause - the attack - not the secondary cause which is Israel's reaction to it (which may be disproportionate, but hey, who can blame them, right?).
     
  14. Devil's Advocate

    Devil's Advocate Well-Known Member

    West Bank.

    Israel is not provoking attack?
     
  15. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    I might provoke you, but that doesn't mean you can attack me with violence.

    There is no excuse for violence, period. There are other ways such issues should be sorted, namely diplomacy.

    Both sides should seek to take the moral high ground; if the Palestinians did this they'd have a better chance of bringing the global superpowers on their side and agreeing actions on Israel. But no one is going to support a country who is lead by a terrorist organisation.
     
  16. Jackoftrades

    Jackoftrades Well-Known Member

    Interesting debate, points on both sides.

    But it is coming back to the terrorist heading/definition.

    Are they terrorists or freedom fighters? The answer is a subjective matter of opinion, and location ?

    Has Trump helped, overall ? Or made a bad situation worse ? He doesnt have much world support I notice.
     
  17. Dr Bodgit

    Dr Bodgit Well-Known Member

    Palestinians/Hamas are Terrorists, Israelis are bullies. And Trump is a knob and has made an already difficult situation a LOT worse.
     
  18. fillyboy

    fillyboy Well-Known Member

    What's a Palestinian?

    Where is their land?
    What is their language?
    What is their culture?

    What's a Palestinian?
     
  19. longboat

    longboat Well-Known Member

    I don't know, does anyone know?
    All I know is that, DA, supports their terrorist ways.
    It looks like he's also advocating the methods used in the past by the IRA.

    I think he doth protest too much about Corbyn.
     
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  20. btiw2

    btiw2 Well-Known Member

    Bomber Harris didn't care who he bombed. "The destruction of industrial sites always was some sort of bonus for us. Our real targets always were the inner cities."

    I'm not saying Bomber Harris was a terrorist (although in the "Ethics of Bombing" there was a Lt Col who argued that the allies, through bombing, used terror as a weapon[1]).

    Britain was in a fight for her existence and I'm not qualified to pass judgement on those who fought for my country. So I can't and I won't.

    The forces and resources available to the Palestinians and the Israelis are very unequal.
    When there is a lack of symmetry in forces then the Palestinians will use the tactics of asymmetric warfare.
    They will use religious fanatics as tools (in both senses of the word).
    To quote Harris again: "For the lack of a rapier, we used a bludgeon". In conflict people will consider effectiveness before ethics.
    It's crappy, but it's the nature of conflict, what did you expect?

    At the end of the second world war Churchill was strongly against punishing or vilifying Germany.
    Similarly, with Northern Ireland and South Africa we've seen how important reconciliation is in the peace process.
    How important it is to avoid the eye-for-an-eye that makes the whole world blind (Gandhi?).

    Stopping the process of apportioning blame is an important part of that process (for politicians that is - I trust us normal people will continue to tease the Germans about the war).
    And that's what we all want. Peace. Not some ethical scoreboard of war crimes.
    It must be incredibly difficult for people who have lost loved ones to conflict, but I guess peace is difficult too.

    After those conflicts we had great statesmen; intelligent, subtle and magnanimous politicians to guide the difficult process of rebuilding peace.
    Even then, the results are mixed.

    Now we have President Trump. A vainglorious little man, lacking in intelligence[2], subtlety and insight.
    Does anybody think this move was anything other than him pandering to his ignorant and insular base?

    [1] I can probably find the reference if anyone wants to read the full analysis.
    [2] President Trump keeps challenging people to IQ tests. I'm no genius, but I reckon I could easily take him. President Trump, if you're reading this, call me!
     
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