Article 50

Devil's Advocate said:
I thought it was the country that was supposed to be at breaking point, not you?
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Yes that was me, but still can't see the relation to wanting to be a member of the nazi party? Please elaborate?

Also if you could let me know what your stance is on a few questions that would be fantastic:)

What kind of immigration policy would you be in favour of? Or would you just allow the both legal and illegal immigrants to come to the UK?

What are your views the EU trade deals with the impoverished farmers in west Africa?

if you had to choose who would you prioritise for refugee status to come to the UK, men, women or childeren?
 
Devil's Advocate said:
For the NHS to function, it needs financing at a similar rate to other countries with successful national health services. I guess it needs better organisation too, but that is relative minor. What it needs is more money if it's going to continue to serve us as it has.

The £350M per week promised by the Leave campaign would be a nifty start - although paltry in real terms.

But that is never going to happen. That was never going to happen. Anything like that is even less likely to happen now.

Because the country will simply not be able to afford it for probably decades.

You're welcome, Longs, Phil, Mr Ha, JJ et al.

Because you contributed to this.

And, in case you are wondering, I do - and will - hold your part in this to blame.



It's all going to be grreeeeaaaattttt! We've taken back controoooollllllllllll....!
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Well, that post, da, explains the reason why I liked, Phil's post.
For the simple reason that it's broadly true, and you've just proved it to be.

In tother thread I tried to explain the reason's why I thought the NHS was on a slippery slope towards privatisation, decades before an EU ref was even on the agenda.
Granted, the resulting leave vote may have an effect on the 'when' but it won't change the 'if'.
The only way it could be saved is with huge tax increases, and I think we can at least agree that, that ain't going to happen.

Quick question, can you reference any part of the 'NHS', (excluding, A&E) that isn't either wholly, or partly contracted out to private companies?
 
Devil's Advocate said:
Although the campaign of the remain camp was truly awful, it was not on the scale of misrepresentation - lies - of the Leave's. That is established fact as I mentioned in post #676. It has been analysed repeatedly since then.

Please try and claim it ain't so if you like. (And then correct yourself after a Google.)

And to correct your last point, I have not - and do not - claim that all who voted Leave are racists. I have never said that, and nor do I believe it to be the case.

What the vast majority are, however, is simply ignorant. I mean that in its true sense - they did not have the information on this huge subject on which to make an informed judgement. Simple as that.

And they still don't. The vast majority - as demonstrated by the classic cross-section of Leavers on here - don't have a scooby what the EU is about. They do not appreciate that it is probably the most significant and important political union in the world, for reasons I have espoused on here many times - in fully detailed and reasoned arguments.

The vast majority of those who voted 'Leave' didn't think any further than considering it a 'club' that costs us £350M per week to join and tells us what to do. They also believed that immigration was the cause of this country's ills. They also felt something good in their gut whenever someone said 'Take back control!'

And, yes, a huge number of them are closet racists to some degree. Ie - they consider people unlike them to be inferior simply due to the fact the are different from them. And there's some prime examples on here. They will try and portray a whole 'people' based on some very carefully selected and unrepresentative examples that suit their 'arguments'. That is pure and simple racism. And Farage has given them permission to open their mouths to say what was always sitting deep inside them in any case. Yuck.

To be fair, many of the Remain camp didn't appreciate the full value of the EU either - they just wanted the freedom to move around amongst their European friends as much as they liked!

Sorry, Scott - that is the truth. The British population was not equipped to make this decision.

And we are about to reap the cost of this mistake.

And that is the very sad truth.
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Of course the public are not aware of the inner workings of the European Parliament and commission and I should imagine that's one of the reasons the majority of the country detest it, exactly as they feel completely disenfranchised with the whole political class both here and in Europe and they chose to vote against it.

from what I understand is you have been an academic for most of your life and I hate to tell you but you can always get the answers from a book!! I very much doubt you have ever set foot on a building site and you wouldn't have a clue how economic migration effects uk construction workers in this country.
 
Devil's Advocate said:
That cartoon simply - and beautifully, and tragically - highlights one of the biggest fibs told over the past year, that's all.
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You know nothing DA.

It became very clear, very soon, that the amount on the side of the bus was erroneous. No-one believed that amount.
No-one believed that that amount would be used to fund the NHS. No-one.

Certainly not I.

One thing that was true about that amount was that it IS tied up, and not for the UK to use as they wish.

And you are so far up your own arsse, you will never see why you are wrong.

I've encountered drunken gipsies that talk less diarrhoea than you.

You DO NOT know what we think. FACT. You DO NOT know what we believe.
 
scott belton said:
Yes that was me, but still can't see the relation to wanting to be a member of the nazi party? Please elaborate?

Also if you could let me know what your stance is on a few questions that would be fantastic:)

What kind of immigration policy would you be in favour of? Or would you just allow the both legal and illegal immigrants to come to the UK?

What are your views the EU trade deals with the impoverished farmers in west Africa?

if you had to choose who would you prioritise for refugee status to come to the UK, men, women or childeren?
Click to expand...

Nazi Party? If you mean Paul's joke about the 4th Reich, I suspect he was referencing the swing to the far-right of which the majority of Leavers are involved, or have helped along - whether they were aware of it or not.

Immigration policy? Free movement amongst EU citizens - which is one of the core issues at the heart of the EU. Beyond that we have refugees - who's case should be determined on a one-to-one basis. If valid, we do have room and we should provide for them. Because we are civilised human beings. And the vast, vast majority will reward us for this. (I will not do as some on here like to, and choose a few unrepresentative miscreants and try and pretend that's what 'refugees' are like).

EU and West Africa? No idea. Haven't looked at it. I guess you are going to try and suggest that the EU is 'bad' because of some dodgy deals here? If you'd like to explain what the issues are, I would be interested because I admit I haven't a scooby.

But please don't try and pretend this was an issue for you in your Leave decision, as if you give a damn about West Africans.

And will you try and claim that the new right-wing British government is going to more caring here? Please try that as well.

Priority for refugee status? Whoever needs refuge most. We should - must - take our fair share. If one had to prioritise, then surely children? But any 'prioritising' should really be on need.



What are your answers to these questions?
 
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longboat said:
Well, that post, da, explains the reason why I liked, Phil's post.
For the simple reason that it's broadly true, and you've just proved it to be.

In tother thread I tried to explain the reason's why I thought the NHS was on a slippery slope towards privatisation, decades before an EU ref was even on the agenda.
Granted, the resulting leave vote may have an effect on the 'when' but it won't change the 'if'.
The only way it could be saved is with huge tax increases, and I think we can at least agree that, that ain't going to happen.

Quick question, can you reference any part of the 'NHS', (excluding, A&E) that isn't either wholly, or partly contracted out to private companies?
Click to expand...

Fair do's.

The only way it can be saved is through a larger %-age contribution of our GDP. I guess this requires two things - a tax increase and a boost to our economy.

The Brexit vote - should Brexit end up meaning anything like wot the Leavers want it to be - will scupper both these possibilities.

You're welcome.

It is utterly disingenuous to suggest that 'it was inevitable anyway'. It needs a different government with different priorities, that's all.

After all, Blair did it... :p

As to your 'quick Q' - no I can't. It's not something I spend time reading up on, and I suspect it is, in any case, a bit of a red herring. After all, the school of which I am governor has recently decided to contract out the cleaning to a private company as it made more sense - similar cost, far higher standard of cleaning, no school management required to supervise the cleaners, and any absentees are covered immediately by the company.

So your point is?
 
Mr. Handyandy said:
You know nothing DA.

It became very clear, very soon, that the amount on the side of the bus was erroneous. No-one believed that amount.
No-one believed that that amount would be used to fund the NHS. No-one.

Certainly not I.

One thing that was true about that amount was that it IS tied up, and not for the UK to use as they wish.

And you are so far up your own arsse, you will never see why you are wrong.

I've encountered drunken gipsies that talk less diarrhoea than you.

You DO NOT know what we think. FACT. You DO NOT know what we believe.
Click to expand...

Lol... :rolleyes:
 
scott belton said:
Of course the public are not aware of the inner workings of the European Parliament and commission and I should imagine that's one of the reasons the majority of the country detest it, exactly as they feel completely disenfranchised with the whole political class both here and in Europe and they chose to vote against it.

from what I understand is you have been an academic for most of your life and I hate to tell you but you can always get the answers from a book!! I very much doubt you have ever set foot on a building site and you wouldn't have a clue how economic migration effects uk construction workers in this country.
Click to expand...

Just seen this post of yours, Scott.

The public's ignorance of the EU doesn't even approach that of its 'inner workings'. No-one needs to be able to understand that, only what the ethos of the EU is, what its benefits are - economic, cultural and humanitarian.

People 'detest' it through simple ignorance; the Brits have always been a cynical bunch when it comes to the EU and johnny foreigner, but the flip side of this is that we have, at the same time, usually shown an attitude of fair-play, resilience against those who try to persecute, a general feeling that Britain ultimately 'gets it right' when others mess up, can be relied on, is fair-minded and dependable.

No longer, sadly. We are now as pathetic as what a Trump-led USA would be. We have exposed our chippiness. Our resentment. Our disparaging of fair-play. Our dark, inhuman side. Our prejudice. Our bigotry. Our cowardliness.

We are now - in the eyes of the world - a fraction of what we once were.

Some on here - and some to whom I've spoken in 'real life' - poo-poo ( :) ) things like human rights. If only they tried living in a country where it didn't exist, I think they'd stop being so flippant & dismissive.

So, sorry, ignorance is what it's about. Their hatred is not based on knowledge or reason. It is misguided selfishness, a looking out for 'me', with the irony being it is they who will suffer the most.

As for me, well, wow... The implication that I'm somehow out of touch 'cos I'm educated! As if the '4th-graders' are more 'in tune'!

What a stupid and contemptible thing to suggest. As well as being completely wrong. (Smacks of Phil's - 'you mustn't over-educate some people...')

Ignorance breeds poison. It has always done so throughout human history. And it's happened again.

For what it's worth, I spent the first 15 years of my working life selling and installing kitchens, bathrooms and CH systems. It was only in my mid-30s that I took a teaching degree and spent the next 11-odd years teaching whilst at the same time renovating the three homes I moved between.

You know what? As the young son of a crofter on a wee Hebridean island, who - as a tiny kid - spent hours every evening filling 'bobbins' for my dad's loom, I was still more sophisticated, aware and compassionate than the average adult Leave voter is now.

You'll have to forgive me if I'm even more so now. I make no apology for it.
 
Devil's Advocate said:
Nazi Party? If you mean Paul's joke about the 4th Reich, I suspect he was referencing the swing to the far-right of which the majority of Leavers are involved, or have helped along - whether they were aware of it or not.

Immigration policy? Free movement amongst EU citizens - which is one of the core issues at the heart of the EU. Beyond that we have refugees - who's case should be determined on a one-to-one basis. If valid, we do have room and we should provide for them. Because we are civilised human beings. And the vast, vast majority will reward us for this. (I will not do as some on here like to, and choose a few unrepresentative miscreants and try and pretend that's what 'refugees' are like).

EU and West Africa? No idea. Haven't looked at it. I guess you are going to try and suggest that the EU is 'bad' because of some dodgy deals here? If you'd like to explain what the issues are, I would be interested because I admit I haven't a scooby.

But please don't try and pretend this was an issue for you in your Leave decision, as if you give a damn about West Africans.

And will you try and claim that the new right-wing British government is going to more caring here? Please try that as well.

Priority for refugee status? Whoever needs refuge most. We should - must - take our fair share. If one had to prioritise, then surely children? But any 'prioritising' should really be on need.


What are your answers to these questions?
Click to expand...
Devil's Advocate said:
Just seen this post of yours, Scott.

The public's ignorance of the EU doesn't even approach that of its 'inner workings'. No-one needs to be able to understand that, only what the ethos of the EU is, what its benefits are - economic, cultural and humanitarian.

People 'detest' it through simple ignorance; the Brits have always been a cynical bunch when it comes to the EU and johnny foreigner, but the flip side of this is that we have, at the same time, usually shown an attitude of fair-play, resilience against those who try to persecute, a general feeling that Britain ultimately 'gets it right' when others mess up, can be relied on, is fair-minded and dependable.

No longer, sadly. We are now as pathetic as what a Trump-led USA would be. We have exposed our chippiness. Our resentment. Our disparaging of fair-play. Our dark, inhuman side. Our prejudice. Our bigotry. Our cowardliness.

We are now - in the eyes of the world - a fraction of what we once were.

Some on here - and some to whom I've spoken in 'real life' - poo-poo ( :) ) things like human rights. If only they tried living in a country where it didn't exist, I think they'd stop being so flippant & dismissive.

So, sorry, ignorance is what it's about. Their hatred is not based on knowledge or reason. It is misguided selfishness, a looking out for 'me', with the irony being it is they who will suffer the most.

As for me, well, wow... The implication that I'm somehow out of touch 'cos I'm educated! As if the '4th-graders' are more 'in tune'!

What a stupid and contemptible thing to suggest. As well as being completely wrong. (Smacks of Phil's - 'you mustn't over-educate some people...')

Ignorance breeds poison. It has always done so throughout human history. And it's happened again.

For what it's worth, I spent the first 15 years of my working life selling and installing kitchens, bathrooms and CH systems. It was only in my mid-30s that I took a teaching degree and spent the next 11-odd years teaching whilst at the same time renovating the three homes I moved between.

You know what? As the young son of a crofter on a wee Hebridean island, who - as a tiny kid - spent hours every evening filling 'bobbins' for my dad's loom, I was still more sophisticated, aware and compassionate than the average adult Leave voter is now.

You'll have to forgive me if I'm even more so now. I make no apology for it.
Click to expand...


So what you are saying is, you should be just believe in anything if you are told it is for the greater good without any understanding of the way things work? That sounds to me like the indoctrination of all the major religions, political systems and the Finacial system.

Call me synical but I don't always believe what I'm told as "gospel " and the reason I voted to leave the EU is for the reasons you have cited above, I don't believe there social experiment has worked.

firstly economically look at Greece, Spain, Italy and even France, you have to admit to yourself that the economic policy and regulation is extremely flawed in more way than I could possibly list.

Secondly culturally, this has clearly shown in the towns and city's of the U.K that instead of intergration there are groups of all ethnicitys segregating themselves be it Eastern Europeans or Asian people, it is very hard for these people to intergrate into the majority of the population as many have very poor English language skills. I see this first hand every day due to my profession and it was compounded when the previous government suggested that Muslim women should improve there English skills however the far left as usual pull the race card as I have had on this forum. This segregation also breeds devision on both sides.

thirdly how humane is it to allow the people who can afford to pay people traffickers I.e young males to gain refugee status to Europe whilst the poor and vunrible are left to rot, or that Germany makes more profit of coffee than the whole of the continent of Africa from exports, from EU imposed tariffs, reducing the attractiveness of investment into manufacturing and infurstructure and developing countries and thus impoverishing a huge number of people.

I'm sorry myself that people like you who I'm sure have the best intentions are truly naive, to an Ethos without question certainly not critical thinking!!
 
scott belton said:
So what you are saying is, you should be just believe in anything if you are told it is for the greater good without any understanding of the way things work? That sounds to me like the indoctrination of all the major religions, political systems and the Finacial system.
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That is not at all what I said, or what I imply or what I mean. As you almost certainly know.

Call you cynical? As it happens, I do. You don't simply take things as gospel?! That is bludy hilarious! You have swallowed the poison of Farage and co, leaving your critical faculties on the doorstep.

You have got to ask yourself, Scott - who is on 'your' side here? Who do you know in public life who's a worthy, thoughtful, compassionate and intelligent person who thinks Brexit is just great?!

And then look hard at those who say they do think this What a slimy pitiful self-serving bunch of moral low-lifes. Almost to a person.

At times like this, I do judge people by the company they keep.

Economics? You are aware there's been a world-wide financial crisis, don't you? Here's another Q - where would Greece be during this crisis if it had been on its own?

Integration? Get some facts before you claim there's general segregation. Of course there are groups who do keep together - a bit like Brits in Spain and Portugal (and I can't recall when they were last obliged to learn the local lingo :rolleyes: ) - and more should be done to try and integrate them more successfully (a bit hard when many are openly resented and despised by the Indigenous Brits). What you find is, as future generatiosn are born, they become more and more integrated until they are truly - what are they called? - oh, yes - Brits.

And are these 'unintegrated' groups representative of immigrants as a whole anyway? Or are you - again - using unrepresentative samples to try and make a point? You know what that is called, don't you?

As for Africa, the day you give a damn is the day you can make a legitimate comment.

You are as transparent as a transparent thing.
 
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Devil's Advocate said:
Lol. Politics really is that simple in Phil's massif-IQ land :rolleyes:.
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Correct it isn't, but running away before you're named and shamed isnt good politics, it just shows you up to be the bad premier most people knew you were.

He will now go down as the 3rd worst premier in living history.

1. Blair
2. Thatcher
3. Cameron.
 
Phil the Paver said:
Correct it isn't, but running away before you're named and shamed isnt good politics, it just shows you up to be the bad premier most people knew you were.

He will now go down as the 3rd worst premier in living history.

1. Blair
2. Thatcher
3. Cameron.
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We haven't had many PMs in living memory.

If those are the worst three then that means Gordon Brown is in your top ten PMs in living memory. Eden would be pretty surprised to be in your top ten too (if he weren't dead).
 
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