Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by dinkydo, Jul 25, 2019.
A Brexit cabinet pity it wasn’t a couple of years ago, no deal will be fine let’s get the job done
Too true. At last the UK has leaders that will take it to greater things.
I've just read another article (the third this week) about the declining EU economy and how the ECB can't agree a solution. We are better away from that and the sooner the better.
She was a remainer and did not want to actually leave the EU. We can only wait for October 31st and see if Boris keeps to his word, which is unusual for a Politician.
Big problem is he won't get no deal through parliament, the numbers just don't stack up. Come October 31st the EU will just prolong the process and we'll be faced, probably, with a general election. It's just not going to happen this year, if at all.
We get told we are in a Democracy but we are far from it. We have the unelected royal family and hangers on that nobody voted for coupled with the House of lords that none of us voted for either.
We then have a Referendum with the majority voting to leave the EU. MP'S are trying there best to scupper that against the wishes of their constituents and the majority who voted leave, despite all the promises they made to carry out the referendum result, they are going against their word.
Put all three items listed above together and we definately do not have a democracy.
If enough people believe that we don't have a democracy that is fit for purpose, for example they believe in the instances you outline, then it is up to them to vote in a general election for a party that will make the changes necessary; or form a party themselves that will put in place those changes if one doesn't exist.
The ghost of Chippie will stalk you all...........
The thing we need to do is have two referendums.
1) Do away with the unelected saxe-coburg and gotha's and have an elected President or the Prime Mininster does the job.
2) Do away with the unelected House of Lords and have a slimmed down elected second house.
The only problem is, if the result is not what the Establishment want, they will do their best to scupper it, as we have recently found out.
So where is the Democracy?
The only party that would come close to delivering that, if that is what you want, would be Labour. Practically speaking would the abolition of the Lords and the Monarchy actually change anything on the ground? I would say not, other than freeing up a few million which in the grand scheme of things is nothing and would make no practical difference to you or me, in my opinion of course.
If no agreement can be made with the EU before October 31st and Westminster refuse to back a no deal, then an election will be suicidal for the Conservatives.
Labour will also fail to get support due to many Labour voters supporting Brexit, plus Jeremy Corbyn being undesirable to many people as a leader of Labour Party or as a future Prime Minister. Labour don’t know where they stand in regards to Brexit.
So we will have a large Brexit party and Lib Dem party and insignificant Tory and Labour Party, with no party having the power.
It might be futile for Westminster to not back a no deal, if the date is set to leave.
It will be interesting to keep this thread going (or resurrect it) once the final outcome is known. My opinion is that a no deal will never get through parliament, this will then lead to a general election. What then happens is anyone's guess. Whoever is right can then say "I told you so" even if it is a random guess as to what will happen. My own punt is that a general election would see the Brexit party relegated to a poor fourth, but I could be completely wrong, this is why I find this interesting, the outcome is impossible with any certainty to predict.
Dobbie there will be powerful forces bent on scuppering Brexit on the 31st but at least Boris has nailed his flag to the mast he has taken the chance of looking a naive fool at best, it is early days but the fool who has just exited office has left the country and Conservative party in a mess concerning Brexit,
I don’t believe Boris is a fool or buffoon, but if he has any favours at all to call in he will need to do so, I’m sure there will be plenty of deals to be made behind the scenes if Brexit has any chance, like you guys I’m awaiting the outcome with interest
I wouldn't blame MPs as such. This whole stupid argument of hard vs. soft Brexit only started after the referendum as the idiots who phrased the question in the first place didn't actually plan out what Brexit would look like. It's a constitutional crisis made out of incompetence. There isn't a majority for a hard Brexit in parliament or amongst the general public. Nor is there a majority for soft Brexit or remain.
May probably could have built a majority for her deal were it not for the wealthy idealogues in the ERG who hijacked the whole thing for their pretty pretensions of the great old days of the British Empire. Boris is a mere opportunist who can sense a popular cause. Rees-Mogg and his band of merry morons are the ones who failed to deliver Brexit. They are perfectly willing to cut off our collective noses to spite our collective faces because it matters not one iota to them. They then tell us there's nothing to fear from a hard Brexit because they can only rely on emotion and not evidence, which appeals to a partisan media - the remainers react to emotion with more emotion on their side and it feeds the whole frenzy again.
On the general point of democracy, the referendum for proportional representation (which would have been more democratic than FPTP) did not receive a majority vote. A democratic vote that didn't vote for more democracy. We get what we deserve.
My prediction: the EU will make some minor concession. Boris will claim victory by saying it's a major concession that May and her team could never have negotiated and there will be a 'technical extension' beyond the 31st October to ratify the 'new' treaty (which is really the old one but a slightly more polished ****). As facts no longer matter, Boris rides a wave of popular approval amongst right leaning people and wins a bigger majority in parliament.
That's a reasonable prediction as the possibility of us just crashing out with no deal and nobody moving on either side is to my mind an impossibility. I have however already nailed my colours to the mast as to a general election due to stalemate so will stay with that. If I am right I will of course put it down to having my fingers on the political pulse and having unrivaled insight into the machinations of power politics.
Borris's latest comment indicates a no deal followed by trade talks. An option probably based on earlier comments that trade can not be discussed before we are out.
LOL Democracy when a mere 15000 people have effectively set the current cabinet and prime minister. When parliament was locked we had a constitutional crisis. The reason for it being locked are varied. The only democratic solution to that is a general election or a 2nd referendum. The obvious one is a 2nd referendum. It pretty obvious why the current cabinet wouldn't want that or a large proportion of tory mp's. It would very probably reverse the decision which is also a constitutional crisis that has never been seen before. Probably true of several parties other than one that has no other hope because of promises made and not kept when they last had a lot of votes.
A general election wont be seen as desirable by many parties for the simple reason that the result will currently be media led. In real terms little possibility of any party achieving a majority but if several newspapers etc made the right noises one may do. I don't think Farage sees himself holding a majority but his party will serve it's purpose and fracture the vote. I admire him after a fashion as he is good at illustrating that we live under a system that can no longer works as it should. May never have really. Take an example - we join the eu and then elect representatives there that want us out. Not really made clear but he is good at saying things that influence votes and then later retracting them. Immigration is a good example. They are all at that at the moment.
Corbyn as usual is being misreported as it makes "good" news His stance is pretty clear actually. He reckons he already has a deal and that in real terms his response depends on the situation when an exit actually happens. Unusually honest for a politician. He party though as always is making noises as they feel if he states various specific things they will get more votes. He wont so they do. That's what drives nearly all politicians to make any noises at all. Votes.
Farage reckons he will still be at the EU parliament in November, even longer.
To be honest I am not convinced that Boris is playing russian roulette with the EU - they will give in eventually sort of approach. The financial squeeze has netted a £15 billion surplus. It was raised to pay of debt or was it. Debt as a pundit mentioned briefly when debt raised it's head goes 2 ways. look at this - UK's foreign currency reserves. Can't find a more recent one, maybe they have spent it all.
You see politics has degenerated to making noises to get votes and little else other than possibly hidden agendas. I'm surprised Boris isn't mentioning clearing out the cesspit as another now famous politician did. Usual jam tomorrow as always. Trouble is the jam never seems to arrive. The way the world works it probably never will.
A quotation from Ghandi "Be the change that you want to see in the world."
Did you swerve the queue for common sense because it was too long?
Legal immigrants (except for refugees) are not entitled to claim welfare. Even if they marry a British citizen neither they or their spouse are entitled to claim welfare. In fact, legal immigrants have to pay £1000s to stay here until they become British citizens.
Illegal immigrants can’t claim welfare, because they’re illegal.
Refugees are entitled to claim welfare, because the government have decided they are legally entitled to be here.
Asylum seekers can’t work or claim welfare, until the government decide they are legally entitled to be here.
EU citizens are entitled to claim welfare, but the government can deport them.
The simple fact is, the government want immigrants.
Both Tories and Labour want them to fill job vacancies.
Tories want them to keep wages low.
Labour want them because they feel it is morally the right thing to do.
Neither the Tories or Labour want immigrants to come here just to claim welfare.
Don’t get me wrong, there are immigrants who come here to use the system.
They use false identities (often multiple), they commit acts of fraud and various other crimes, all with the intention of sending money back home ready for when they return.
These are very few and far between and usually get caught, imprisoned and the deported.
Then of course, there’s those who are brought here to be kept as virtual slaves by unscrupulous employers.
Boris, Mogg, Raab, Patel, to name but a few, all on the front bench.
most informed post i've read and very rearly get involved with politics for obviouse ones well said sir
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