Bathroom pull light dangerous wiring?

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Ross89t15, Jan 12, 2021.

  1. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Active Member

    Try it again with a hand on a bit of earthed metalwork and see it the neon is any brighter.

    Just be aware though, I have done that in the past and felt a buzz.
     
  2. DIYDave.

    DIYDave. Screwfix Select

    I’ve not watched the clip yet, I’m far too busy today !!!! :D

    But you mentioned dodgy plugs ?
    Was it the Big Clive Teardown ?

    My son showed me that other day with Xmas lights made overseas but fitted with a UK 3 pin ‘fused’ plug

    But fuse didn’t do anything and even when removed fuse - hey presto, plug still worked !!

    yeah I know, loads of dangerous and rubbish stuff gets imported but but that’s really another discussion :)
     
  3. DIYDave.

    DIYDave. Screwfix Select

    Im far too busy today and just packed away my ladder

    Just that you said in this setting, neon wouldn’t work ?

    By sheer fluke, my bathroom is same set up as you suggested, vinyl, ply, timber floor, me wearing trainers, rubber feet on ladder, etc

    Can’t blame the neon for not being that bright, other two lamps in fitting where on and flash on phone also went off - all making neon duller

    But for me, easy to see it was light

    I know I may appear argumentative and annoying and just a diyer but I prefer to stick to facts, not just idle it’s, but’s and maybes
     
  4. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Active Member

    Just be warned, some years ago a bathroom fitter told the electrician he was working with that he had just had an electric shock from a junction box, the electrician said don’t be dilly and caught hold of the box to prove him wrong. The bathroom fitter said the electrician shot back, but was dead before he hit the wall.

    Don’t go too far to try and prove a point.
     
    tina lucinda lane likes this.
  5. DIYDave.

    DIYDave. Screwfix Select

    A sad story indeed but not sure what relevance it has to this post / debate ?

    Without being callous, the kitchen fitted had warned the spark, spark didn’t test so who else can you blame for the tragedy ?

    Surely, any pro spark would prove an items dead with two trusted methods before touching / working on it

    Unfortunately in this case, the spark took the ‘prove dead’ bit too far

    People fall of ladders every day and roofs and scaffolding and die in car crashes

    Majority of the time it’s an accident or the person was at fault, we can’t blame the equipment in every single case can we ?

    I could discuss this all night to be honest - ain’t got a lot of plans at the moment :) Our Wednesday night Boys Club has been temporarily postponed until further notice due to Covid and we can’t be bothered to do a Zoom meet up instead - just not our style

    See what’s on TV later, have a chat with the Mrs and continue on here !!

    Might ‘see you’ later :D
     
  6. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Active Member

    The many of deaths in the building trades due to falling from heights is due to blokes falling off the roofs of their vans whilst loading or unloading the roof rack.

    Don’t be complacent and assume that experimenting with a neon screwdriver that you use frequently is safe, as it is often activities that people carry out frequently that one day turns out to be the cause of death or injury.

    I was working at a house and there was a double glazing guy there doing some work, he pointed at a low spot in a hedge and said the last time he was at that house the fire brigade had cut a hole in the hedge so the ambulance crew could get him into the air ambulance after he fell off a flat roof, he still works on flat roofs, but is a hell of a lot more wary.
     
    tina lucinda lane likes this.
  7. DIYDave.

    DIYDave. Screwfix Select

    You’ve just illustrated my point exactly, once again !

    All these accidents, the poor sparky, the guy who fell off his van roof, window guy that fell off the flat roof, all very sad I’m sure

    But what’s the common denominator here as to the cause of the accidents ?

    Faulty, shoddy, cheap, imported equipment ?

    Er,,,,, NO

    It’s simply down to operator error, a pure accident, being in a rush, being stupid, cutting corners, thinking your smarter than you really are, etc

    Non of your examples are likely to be down to equipment failure leading to loss of life or injury

    And that’s what started this debate if you remember ?

    The claim that a neon screwdriver was likely to result in ‘Instant Death’

    All your stories, as sad as they may well be, are straying from the point of discussion

    I’m a chef and we work with plenty of dangerous and indeed lethal equipment

    Yes, accidents do happen (as Elvis Costello sang :)) we carry out equipment training on every single item, annual refresher training, all training records kept and signed, hazard signs up everywhere, maintenance schedules in place, additional training where needed, damaged equipment taken out of service, etc

    But yes, accidents do happen, and guess what, as in your examples, 99% of the time, it’s due to the person being an idiot and I tell them that. I’m the one that has to fill out the accident record book after all, both internal record and RIDDOR

    No point in us blaming the stove when a chef burns himself is there ?
     
  8. sparky steve

    sparky steve Screwfix Select

    As long as you are aware of the possible flaws etc of using such a device then it’s entirely up to you. Reminds me of when you advise a child not to touch an object “ because it’s hot & it may burn you”! However the child ignores your advice and proceeds to suffer the injury you fore warned them of:eek:o_O:rolleyes:
     
  9. RolandK

    RolandK Active Member

    So you are asking me to believe JW rather than DIY Dave? Not a difficult decision is it!
     
  10. DIYDave.

    DIYDave. Screwfix Select

    Another attempt to put some credence to the claim that a neon screwdriver can / will cause instant death but again, your story about a child burning themselves and ignoring the adults advice bears no resemblance to this discussion

    Tell a child not to ‘touch that wood burning stove or they will burn themselves’ and nobody can deny that’s good advice

    Should the child go ahead and touch the stove, it’s a definitive result that the child will get burnt - there’s no discussion there

    Back to the neon screwdriver situation -
    Would you say to an adult (not a child obviously) Don’t use this screwdriver or you will suffer from ‘Instant Death’ ?

    Well yes, of course you could say it but realistically, the chances of the person dying from using screwdriver is what, less or more than the child burning themselves on the wood burner ?

    If they’re really that dangerous, would Screwfix, BQ, T.St, Wickes, every other wholesaler and hardware shop be selling them ?

    Don’t think they come with a warning either? Like cigs and booze does

    Be realistic here, it’s not exactly like playing Russian Roulette is :)
     
  11. sparky steve

    sparky steve Screwfix Select

    Dave, i’ve never said, “screwdriver can / will cause instant death” your words not mine! I’m pointing to the fact there are better/ safer alternatives. As i have already said as long as you are aware of the possible flaws & unreliabilty of using such a device, then it’s entirely your choice! Just thought you would appreciate there are safer methods.:)
     
  12. DIYDave.

    DIYDave. Screwfix Select

    Sorry Sparky, I didn’t mean it was you that uttered those immortal lines ‘instant death’

    It was Tina (a fellow pro spark I understand ?) who made the statement

    I’ve said time and time again that these screwdrivers are extremely basic, have very limited use, and no pro worth his salt would be seen (dead or alive ;)) using one

    I’ve also said, countless times that I’m diy, yeah, I’m on the forum a lot offering what I consider to be valid advice

    Occasionally I’ve got things wrong, been picked up on it, and accepted that and apologised

    It’s just the above statement of ‘instant death’ (not from yourself Steve) has been jumped on by others on this thread and they seem to be backing it up with various stories, tales, close shaves, etc, non of which bear any relevance to the discussion on dangers of neon screwdriver

    Not looking for any arguments with anyone, although more than happy to have one if deemed necessary and worthwhile !

    So far it’s a good debate, all adult like, no name calling, no persona insults, no throwing ones toys outta the pram ! ..... yet

    Thanks for your advice regarding better testing equipment, appreciated
    I do have a multi meter and a basic 2 prong tester - along with a couple of neons and a non contact tester ..... feel like a pro me ! :)
     
    sparky steve likes this.
  13. tina lucinda lane

    tina lucinda lane Screwfix Select

    I sa
    You state what I said out of context I said it in terms of a neon screw driver can fail more easily and still operate leaving the user at serious risk of instant death hence never recommend using them
     
  14. DIYDave.

    DIYDave. Screwfix Select

    Think about this Roland instead of ‘sucking up’ to other posters

    JW is indeed a fantastic source of information and from what I understand, highly rated and respected ,,,,, yes, all agreed ?

    During the first 30 seconds of the video he states that these neon screwdrivers are;
    Dangerous
    Unreliable
    Shouldn’t be used

    What does he do over the next few minutes of the video ??

    He sticks the screwdriver onto a known live conductor and touches the metal cap to demonstrate the use of the screwdriver what ...... 20-30 times ?

    Yes agreed, sometimes the neon doesn’t light but I’m not here debating that point

    I know they’re unreliable, beyond basic, have very limited worth, no pro would use one, etc

    But, here’s the thing .....
    JW is clearly an educated, clever guy that’s an electrical genius

    If these screwdrivers were really so deadly, would his ‘risk’ his life 20-30 times to make a you tube video ?

    What you recon to that Roland ?

    looking forward to your answer ;)

    Hopefully JW is still alive since making the video in link ?

    Can anyone confirm this fact ?

    Or more ‘Fake News’ ;)
     
  15. RolandK

    RolandK Active Member

    I resent your comment about sucking up to other posters delivered in your usual patronising way. To cut through all this in your original response to this post you advised someone to use a piece of test equipment widely known to be potentially unreliable and dangerous. No matter how much smoke, mirrors and hot air you have spewed forth since that doesn't change the facts. I assume you will be issuing responses to all other contributors who disagree with you on the basis that they are 'sucking up'.
     
  16. DIYDave.

    DIYDave. Screwfix Select

    Well Tina, I did say I was partially having a laugh with this but also ..... don’t really consider that I’ve taken any of your post out of context

    You did say, and I’m paraphrasing here;

    Dangerous piece of kit
    Easily shorted
    Chance of full V & A at finger tip
    Instant death if faulty

    Would like to read some substantiated evidence relating to neon screwdriver deaths

    Actually I’m gonna do some research into this myself - I’m not expecting you to do this for me

    Stay safe Tina
    Seems to be the current slogan regarding Covid but should also be attached to every neon screwdriver up and down the land :)
     
  17. DIYDave.

    DIYDave. Screwfix Select

    I did also challenge Happy Builder when he made a dubious claim about using such screwdriver in a bathroom with vinyl flooring

    I was prepared to risk life and limb and show that indeed the neon did light up - even with my trainers, rubber feet on ladder, vinyl floor, timber underneath, etc .... and again, I’ve survived the experiment

    As to you picking up on me giving such poor advice to people on using a neon screwdriver which as you’ve said is a ‘piece of test equipment widely known to be unreliable and dangerous’

    Unreliable yeah, will give you that one
    Widely known to be dangerous ????

    Ive yet to see the evidence on this

    Again, why would JW risk his life 20-30 times in the clip demonstrating said screwdriver ?

    He must either be crazy or have a death wish or what ?

    As to you resenting my comment towards yourself yep, sorry, I shouldn’t have got personal there, I do apologise

    And if you find me patronising, well again, sorry but try not to loose any sleep over it
     
  18. RolandK

    RolandK Active Member

    Ok let's try this one more time then I'm out of here.
    A dangerous and unreliable piece of test gear might lead someone to believe a circuit was dead when actually live. Thereby putting that person INDIRECTLY at risk of a potentially lethal electric shock. In JW's video he obviously did not go out to prove such a device as directly lethal but did prove beyond doubt that the device was unreliable in its performance.
    I accept your apology.
     
  19. tina lucinda lane

    tina lucinda lane Screwfix Select

    And thanks for bigging me up there but to clarify I'm an electronics and electrical engineer, software engineer pat tester and General bodger
     
  20. tina lucinda lane

    tina lucinda lane Screwfix Select

    Well cousin jw is a bit of an eccentric but at the same time a good sport and clearly states that when working properly shouldn't allow dangerous current or voltage to flow to the user but also points out if the safety device of the tool fails it leaves the user at severe risk of shocks (and put it politely id rather not put my life or someone elses in the hands of a device that 1st uses the users body to form part of a test circuit as highly irresponsible when given soo little protection is in place to prevent shocks that can cause instant death and as someone who has been thrown across a room on her *** by the jolt of an unplugged crt TV crt tube (which hurt like hell) you gain a certain respect for things)
     

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