BBC bias

No - I said something that would make the lives of British people better that wasn't a lie, a unicorn or just complete twaddle.

"No more freeloaders" - Twaddle

"Being more independent" - Complete twaddle

"Reducing German control" - see above - yet more twaddle.

Also even if they weren't twaddle, NONE of these explain how the life of anyone in the UK will be improved. Do try harder!

"Pay a lot (well it's relative - EU contribution is <1% of UK Gov spend) less to the EU" - true, but how will that make your life better? If you're going to try and argue that the UK will have more money to spend on services - well nobody actually believes that any more - not even people like Farage. It's accepted by everyone with a brain that leaving will cost the UK economy - the argument being flung about now is that it will be worth it. Please explain HOW it will be worth it.

Having mostly the same benefits... - err no dear. It would mean the end of the EU if they even countenanced that, and they know anyway that they'll benefit in the long run with the migration of most of the UK's manufacturing businesses into mainland Europe, and probably eventually, most of the financial services too! Read the news today - Switzerland which not only accepts free movement of people but is also part of the Schengen zone, part of EFTA, i.e. a member of the Single Market and thus under the jurisdiction of the ECJ has just been kicked out of a financial equivalence agreement with the EU because the EU tired of them trying to break other agreements. The thing that the UK's Financial Services (biggest contributor to the UK economy) is praying we'll get after Brexit or lose trillions of business.

So I'll say again - name ONE THING that leaving the EU will mean improves the life of an average British citizen - just one! (I won't hold my breath!)
 
Tangoman said:
No - I said something that would make the lives of British people better that wasn't a lie, a unicorn or just complete twaddle.

"No more freeloaders" - Twaddle

"Being more independent" - Complete twaddle

"Reducing German control" - see above - yet more twaddle.

Also even if they weren't twaddle, NONE of these explain how the life of anyone in the UK will be improved. Do try harder!

"Pay a lot (well it's relative - EU contribution is <1% of UK Gov spend) less to the EU" - true, but how will that make your life better? If you're going to try and argue that the UK will have more money to spend on services - well nobody actually believes that any more - not even people like Farage. It's accepted by everyone with a brain that leaving will cost the UK economy - the argument being flung about now is that it will be worth it. Please explain HOW it will be worth it.

Having mostly the same benefits... - err no dear. It would mean the end of the EU if they even countenanced that, and they know anyway that they'll benefit in the long run with the migration of most of the UK's manufacturing businesses into mainland Europe, and probably eventually, most of the financial services too! Read the news today - Switzerland which not only accepts free movement of people but is also part of the Schengen zone, part of EFTA, i.e. a member of the Single Market and thus under the jurisdiction of the ECJ has just been kicked out of a financial equivalence agreement with the EU because the EU tired of them trying to break other agreements. The thing that the UK's Financial Services (biggest contributor to the UK economy) is praying we'll get after Brexit or lose trillions of business.

So I'll say again - name ONE THING that leaving the EU will mean improves the life of an average British citizen - just one! (I won't hold my breath!)
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Alarmist Twaddle.

Important that we have Westminster MPs under control. We now have even many of the hard line Remainers agreeing that Brexit must happen.
That is progress compared to the fake democracy we previously had.

Time to be strong and realise the apparent risks are mostly twaddle.
Seriously.
 
Heat said:
Oh, and having mostly the same benefits we currently have within the EU once we leave.
(You don’t seriously think the EU want to, or can afford to make us an outsider with different rules and thus reduce the money we give to the EU or advantages to EU citizens even further, - do you?)
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That seems to relate to what the carefully arranged finalists in the PM contest seem to think what will happen. That is essentially what they are arguing. Me tarzan and they are bound to renegotiate before we go out without a deal. One problem with that is that the other side will be thinking of principle - what the EU is all about and in real terms us being out doesn't really make any difference to them other than if we get a wonderful deal and other members might want the same.

The contestants are also coming out with the usual **** - money for all things imaginable from a bottomless pit. No HNS payment for the low paid. Great when it's being freely admitted that it needs more than it gets. Tax cuts, more to the police - Tory favourites. I wondered if the short sharp shock would raise it's head again. Bring back Borstal. ;) Personally I have always thought that a couple of years in the armed services would be better but they might just finish up in a military prison.

The money saved. That one is absolutely brilliant. Just about every part of the financial sector have said that if they can't trade there they have a big problem. Answer move. Seems some already have. Loss of tax revenue could easily offset what is currently sent to the EU. ;) We live in such a wonderful land we even get some back for things we can't afford to do our selves. Money we have has probably been spent in the SE, :) One tory famously said that everybody should move there as no hope of recovering where they currently live.

LOL The thing that gets me about it all is that I don't think anybody really knows why some politicians want the UK out. Could be that they just want to change the EU's aims. Or what? I'll tell you something that really is a question. :) :) :) Maybe they are all spies from various countries as the USA, Russia and even China aren't keen on the EU as it's big enough to interfere with their aims. Not big enough to do all it might want to do though.

The main noise in out often brings up immigration. Sadly always a way of gaining votes but later quietly says we need it. No mention of the EU and old colony split in that area either. Seems some countries have people who can do certain things grow on trees, even dress makers, born to do it and make indian curries etc. Education is the obvious answer or is it? Actually immigration figures in our usual political arena simply to gain votes not actually do anything about it when push comes to shove. Mind you they have managed to send some away who can't easily defend themselves and have every right to live here. Maybe illegals too but even with a current boarder controls some still get in and will continue to. :) I know, lets build a wall and ban battery operated angle grinders.

Shouts of democracy. Get real folks if parliament is tied the only democratic solution is another referendum.

John
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I notice you like every other Leaver I've challenged, massively FAILED to provide a SINGLE valid reason for Leaving.
But like all the rest, when challenged, resorts to "You lost get over it".

I didn't really expect anything more though tbh - you're just thinking the way Banks tells you.
 
"I don't think anybody really knows why some politicians want the UK out"

They do and there's a few different reasons - depending of course on the intelligence of the politician and their scruples.

It can hardly fail to be noticed, but many the main Brexiteer MP's are almost laughably thick. Davis, Johnson, Fox, Leadsom, Grayling, etc Of course there's a lot of dumb Remainer MPs too, but the ones I've just listed have carried some of the most important roles in Government over the last 2 years. Without Brexit, they wouldn't have had a hope of getting the levels of responsibility they have. Which genuinely believe in Brexit, and which have jumped on the bandwagon seeing it their best hope of political power?

Then you have the likes of JRM - definitely not stupid, but the fact he's busy moving his money out of the UK, while pressing for a no-deal Brexit tells its own story. There are a LOT of ties between the ERG and US business leaders and financiers - which nation stands to gain the most in the event of a no-deal Brexit? The USA - in one stroke the power of the EU (its main global competitor) is diminished, while the UK suddenly becomes a whole lot more reliant on the crumbs from the USA's table. How many of the ERG's members will benefit to the tune of millions if they "help" out their US chums??


What has been happening of course over the last 2 years is the fantasy of Brexiteer claims has met reality. Hence, TM's Hard Brexit deal was rejected - in fact just about every possible deal any Brexiteer could have put forward, would have been rejected for similar reasons, which is why the Brexit puppeteers are now telling their troops, it'll be awful, but we got through WWII, so we can do this. Hmm - this is why they're afraid to run another referendum of course - with this kind of offering I doubt if Leave would get 30% this time around. So the can has been kicked and kicked down the road - nothing's changed yet and nothing will. The Tories KNOW that delivering a no-deal Brexit would WIPE them out as a party as soon as the inevitable aftermath becomes apparent, so whatever Boris or Hunt come up with, it will be rejected by Parliament
 
Valid reason for leaving:

We can get rid of leaking push button loos, THE biggest source of wasted clean water in Britain, and go back to syphons and levers which don't cause water leaks.

At present we can't insist on syphons and levers being compulsory as it would create a barrier to trade with the EU.

So by leaving, we will not only be free, but we'll also be more environmentally friendly.

Leavers prefer levers!

Incidentally, I've kept out of this discussion because like every internet discussion about Brexit, no-one ever changes their mind as the result of what someone of opposing views writes, so it's pretty pointless.

Although I voted to leave, I don't believe we will, and frankly whatever happens, I doubt any of us will notice the slightest bit of difference.

But the business of leaking loos, above, is true.
 
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I wouldn't say that brexiteer MP's are thick and I doubt if they are misguided. They have an aim what ever it is. More factual is that politicians have got away with spouting drivel that seldom achieves anything useful. Not that they can do anything at all about many things that bug people such as jobs and income and behind that the "things" that seem to get worse. People can be persuaded to blame anything they feel is suitable. Immigration is always a good one. Even climate change. CO2, NOx and particles are only part of it. They are all after votes, Trump goes the other way. Make loads of CO2 = votes. So has the current bloke that is running Brazil. Vote for me and I'll chop down the entire amazon rain forest so people did. They are called popularists. Sometimes as has happened in Greece they get a dose or reality when they are actually in power. Sometimes they don't.

That's what most of it is about VOTES. Policies usually get heavily influenced by the areas they are funded from. Why would anyone fund them if that wasn't the case.

John
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Tangoman said:
I love how Leavers always use the royal we, when it's a fact they can't agree anything amongst themselves - hence the sorry state of Parliament.

But I tell you what - mr loser. Why don't YOU list one positive aspect to leaving the EU - i.e something that will make the lives of British people better - just one that isn't either a total lie, a unicorn, or just complete twaddle.

I've asked the question a LOT in the last 3 years and still to hear a good answer.
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38 million quid a week.
 
Diyloser said:
38 million quid a week.
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That is for a year. :) :) What substance are you on. :) No offence intended. Me too maybe I read that incorrectly but figures are per year. Billions.

Actual accounting for what comes back 9 of them. Wonder why that much comes back, it only goes to need.

Total tax spend is something over 800 of them now. Curiously when the Scot's had their out vote it was around 1000 of them and they received more per capita than people in Britain did and still do. In their case oil revenues have improved in more recent years and exploration has picked up but the politics of it supporting Scot's wasn't as straight forwards as some would have people believe. In fact it's since run at a loss at times.

John
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Actually it's 25 million a week not accounting for what come back compared with a spend of 800,000 million. Political favourite. Sounds huge but in government terms it isn't. Another one is saying X million or maybe a a billion into such and such and then very quietly adding over X years. Inflation will reduce the value of the addition to what it's going to as well and it might just cover that. Sounds good though.

John
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If some one wants to see what gov spends on what this gives a fair idea,

DeptSpend.jpg

This one is interesting as well. Number of civil servants has gone up too rather recently. Finding out what they cost is tricky thanks to lots being "contracted out" to companies.

BrexitAlloc.jpg

John
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:) Also where tax comes from - shows how corporation tax can be cut a lot - it's not the major source and many avoid paying in various ways anyway.

WhereTaxComesFrom.jpg

John
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No - 38 million quid is not a reason (it's not even true lol).

You might like to argue that we can take the £x million that we pay to the EU and spend it on xyz instead, like ** said he'd spend it all on the NHS.

But then you have to factor in that if you do that, you can't spend it on anything else, like the millions that have been promised to farmers and fishermen to compensate them for what they'll lose, or the millions that will need to spent on setting up and running equivalent bodies to replace all the EU institutions we won't be part of any more - e.g. EMA or EASA - the former used to be based in London but has already left since the referendum, the job EASA does would need to be taken over by the CAA, but it is far too big a task for it as it presently stands and would need to recruit and train significantly - a story repeated many many times.

So yes, you can make that argument, as long as you also account for all the other Brexit "expenses" and don't deceitfully pretend that there won't be any.

Note - I'm not even going to try and make the argument that the <1% of government expenditure you're referring to isn't totally wiped out by a loss of tax receipts from weaker business performances - you wouldn't understand it, but it's not really necessary anyway. Unless you've got a magic calculator, there won't be anything left once you've accounted for all the non-controversial costs such as those I list above.
 
"I wouldn't say that brexiteer MP's are thick and I doubt if they are misguided"

Well "thick" is a subjective and ultimately useless term to apply, I'll admit. However, why do you believe they are NOT misguided??

Have you ever spent any time with politicians? Especially those who have done little else in their life? And suddenly they're charged with the equivalent of running an enormous business?

I used to do a lot of IT contracts for the government, and they were always a nightmare, overrunning and going overbudget because the politicians could never grasp the idea they couldn't change their mind the day before a deadline and expect everything to still be magically done. Was a great story on the BBC the other day about an airport in Berlin that was supposed to open in 2012: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-48527308 This is exactly the same kind of that everyone who has ever worked for a large government project will relate.

So of course, for the last 40 years, they haven't had a lot to deal with really. Business has generally got on with stuff, and politicians have dealt with tinkering around the edges. Labour comes in and they spend a bit more money on welfare, Tories come in and they cut back a bit... etc etc. It's been great because they haven't had much scope to truly **** things up. But suddenly, everything is going to change, and they're having to get their head around things like WTO tariff schedules, a bazillion EU agencies that regulate everything from airplane safety to the quality of vegetables etc etc, and to be quite frank, they're not up to it anymore than you or I would be if we were invited to go and run Tesco for a few years. Oh, we could talk big - yes, when WE run things, the shelves will never be empty, prices will be low, no food wastage, no plastic, etc etc. Anyone with ANY experience of running even a small business knows that talk and action are VERY different things.

So yeah - that's what really scares me at the moment and it has little to do with whether Brexit COULD be a good idea or not. We've got the 2 main parties, both ****ing useless at projects, and BOTH talking about embarking on the biggest "project" since WWII as though it was nothing. EGOS! That's what it's all about - both Brexit, and ultimately Labour's planned Marxist revolution.

So yup - "misguided".
 
"At present we can't insist on syphons and levers being compulsory as it would create a barrier to trade with the EU."

Err - no.

The Single Market rules stop governments from making rules based on location, or anything that basically is prejudicial against a business from Country X doing business in Country Y. It does NOT stop countries from setting their own standards for things - e.g. The UK has very stringent electrical regulations that prevent homeowners for instance from doing lots of work themselves.
Or it prevent businesses from engaging in practises that mean people of different countries are treated differently - JCB got their knuckles rapped for that as they were trying to prevent people crossing a border to buy their stuff cheaper next door.

It doesn't stop ANY nation from determining it's own standards for goods/services, provided that those equal or EXCEED any EU requirements in that area. This is basically HOW the EU operates incidentally - a directive is agreed upon and each nation implements it in their own way - the UK regularly sets higher standards than "required".

So if the UK actually wanted to, it could insist on syphons and levers being compulsory - I strongly suspect that most politicians couldn't give a rats **** about it though.

I've actually yet to hear anyone suggest something that they CAN change upon leaving the EU, that they WANT to change, that they can't now apart from VAT - and there's sod all chance of that happening given that VAT is one of the biggest contributors to the exchequer.
 
Joe's comment is typical of many comments about the EU. Wont be as straight forwards as it seems. Anyway why button operated? Simple 2 styles of flush according to which one is pressed which conserves water. That will probably get into UK building regs as the population grows and should appeal to any one who is on a water meter. I understand all are in some countries in the EU. The "BMA" are more likely to be moaning that the can't get the EU to agree to making them compulsory as other toilet makers wont agree. :) You blame them?

Brexit MP's not misguided? They will have some aim so in their terms they aren't. They are it seems guided by people like Banks. I'd prefer to call all of them crazy because they are from my viewpoint. On the other hand they have their own aims and ambitions. People need to wonder about what they are and why for instance they want to get away from the court of human rights that in real terms has never caused them any problems. Then identify a law that has been forced on us - wish you luck on that. Standards for various things yes loads of them but all agreed between countries. That even goes on globally and being out wont do anything about it. What's probably behind it really is free market ideas because the EU isn't a free market for any country that isn't in it. Corbyn sees it as a capitalist club. It is but in a sense most of the world is. Most of what people hear about him is from various forms of spin doctor plus lately the Eaton, Harrow civil service brigade because as they see it he is a boat rocker. That's politics. Keep it up long enough and people are inclined to believe it. That to my mind is exactly what has happened with Brexit augmented by the media looking for things to report on without really providing any detail. Then there are people about who actually think that things can go back to how they were in the 60's and so on.

The other aspect in respect to the EU is closer political union. That really is a boat rocker and would mean all sorts of changes in their area. Good bad. I'd be inclined to feel that given the way the world is long term good. Curious thing is that sort of set up works pretty well for the USA. Their parties may shout at each other but there is a consensus.

The real problem the EU has is popularist politicians cropping up in all countries in increasing numbers. They get votes as people aren't happy for one reason or another and they make solutions sound simple when they aren't.

John
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The biggest cause of wasted clean water in the UK is leakage past the seals on the bottom of push button operated flush valves. It's not to do with a choice between whether you prefer buttons or levers. All modern syphons allow short or long flushes, but syphons can't let water trickle through constantly from the bottom.

https://www.watersafe.org.uk/news/latest_news/look_before_you_leak/

I have seen correspondence from the BMA in which that statement about the barrier to trade with the EU was made. That's why they won't campaign to ban push buttons.

That's me done with this topic now incidentally. I'm not going to have any more involvement with Brexit-related subjects as they always lead nowhere.
 
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Joe the Plumber said:
That's me done with this topic now incidentally. I'm not going to have any more involvement with Brexit-related subjects as they always lead nowhere.
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;) That's 'cause we live in a broken cistern but everything goes down the toilet anyway. Just makes a bit of a mess.

John
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There’s some saying, about being able to fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but not being able to fool all of the people all of the time.
With Brexit though, it’s a case of being able to fool just enough of the people, for just enough of the time.

We’re screwed.

The only thing left for the remainders and the leavers to argue about now, is how badly screwed we are.
 
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