Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by Harry Stottle, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. dinkydo

    dinkydo Well-Known Member

    Ah accurate information, do you mean like the information that was given out by The treasury, the Bank of England (Mark Carney)the International Monetary Fund and the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, that in the event of a leave vote winning Unemployment would rocket. Tumbleweed would billow through deserted high streets. Share prices would crash. The government would struggle to find buyers for UK bonds. Financial markets would be in meltdown. Britain would be plunged instantly into another deep recession,

    The vote was simple, leave or stay, information accurate or otherwise was not required by the Brexit voters we just wanted out.
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  2. ajohn

    ajohn Well-Known Member

    That last line of yours sums it up really but on the other hand it says you had no reason what so ever to vote out so just did base on no information at all from anybody of any political persuasion.

    Actually it's generally reckoned that a proportion of people did vote like that - it's called a protest vote caused by a general dissatisfaction with politics in general - another way of saying up yours but really it would be better to just defaced ballet papers if some one feels like that.

    Actually my basic feeling is that anyone who just takes what the political lot says as being 100% true and straight forwards must be living on another planet or for some reason stopped developing some time in their teens. It's always the same - jam tomorrow plus things that sound simple but have implications that are never mentioned and largely down to lobbyists or some theory some one has come up with that may or may not work out.

  3. Harry Stottle

    Harry Stottle Well-Known Member

    I'm sure that many people voted to leave without having good reasons, similarly many voted remain without good reason. Those who say that the consequences of leaving were not explained must also agree that the consequences of remaining were not explained either.
    The situation developing seems to me to resemble the Southern Ireland and Holland stitch-ups, where they had to keep voting until the politicians got the result they wanted.
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  4. ajohn

    ajohn Well-Known Member

    I don't think there is much chance of another in or out vote. If they were sensible we would already have had one. The idea of ending up stuck with it due to Irish problems is just guff. The aim in that area is to solve it somehow if the so called deal was excepted. Big problem nobody has any idea just how to do that. This is why I think Boris was just treading water until we went out with no deal. Leaves the EU with a problem and unprotected border on a controlled market so they would have add a border. Their problem.

    I'm also pretty convinced that people aren't really aware of the main beef with the EU is. It's the changes since it moved on from the common market. Closer political union. An eventual move to that was mentioned even before we joined so as I voted to join why should I object to that. I might object to how it's done. Farage comes out with all sorts but the basis of his real beliefs come down to the same thing. A lot of his moans are misleading - legislation being mentioned as if they are laws and etc, several million Turks heading for the UK, not nice living next to Romanians and etc etc etc.

    One of the main reasons they gave for joining was trade wars. Not mentioned as such but that countries would one way or the other reduce imports. Jobs everywhere are vanishing. It's taken long time to happen to any extent but is. That puts the UK in an odd position - have a trade war with dominant countries or groups of them forming say the EU, there are others. The very idea is some sort of joke as we can't support ourselves without imports. We can't even feed ourselves.

    What's probably going on really is an attempt to change the EU along with some that think best to be out anyway. There are not many of those.

    The point I am making as well is that a 3% majority on a vote isn't many at all and it's pretty clear that accepting a lot of things that have been said as 100% correct and aren't is more than enough to get a much larger swing than that. Cambridge ALalitica see themselves as being largely responsible. There business is changing public opinion. That's what they are paid for. Our politicians pay people to come up with ideas to do exactly the same thing.

  5. PaulBlackpool

    PaulBlackpool Well-Known Member

    Hi Guys. I haven't posted in ages. I voted to remain.
    But I have ceased to argue one way or the other so I just want to stick to the one query I am making.
    What do you make of Dominic Cummings' Blogg?
    I cannot for the life of me make head or tail of it.
  6. Muzungu

    Muzungu Active Member

    Just had a quick look. It looks like nothing less than someone trying to impress everyone with how "clever" they are. You see it all the time on the internet, even in replies to pretty conventional subjects on here now and again (if I could be so bold). A cut and paste job from many sources with references to obscure academic publications and authors; quite easy to do but doesn't particularly impress me.

    I don't have the time or inclination to try to make head or tail of it or attempt to critique it, maybe it's beyond my intellectual ability who knows; I am inclined to thinks it's b*llocks.
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  7. ajohn

    ajohn Well-Known Member

    One way or the other the page linked to is all about this

    I wrote about some reasons for this before the referendum (cf. The Hollow Men). The Westminster and Whitehall response was along the lines of ‘natural party of government’, ‘Rolls Royce civil service’ blah blah. But the fact that Cameron, Heywood (the most powerful civil servant) et al did not understand many basic features of how the world works is why I and a few others gambled on the referendum — we knew that the systemic dysfunction of our institutions and the influence of grotesque incompetents provided an opportunity for extreme leverage.

    Then a load of pseudo science. Bull stuff baffles brains IMHO in this case.

    ie Don't understand how the world works. I reckon that is true. For instance they have asked why America is more successful than the UK via a Harvard professor who basically said they could allow their people to prosper, no doubt about that but it would be better to loosen things up. If they accepted that it's as simple as that they must be mad.

    Elsewhere on the pages you will find what he told Brexit campaigners to say. That's what advisers do. The aim is to swing public opinion. They also provide ideas on what to do. Elsewhere he reckons that being out of the EU will take immigration off the agenda yet he has encouraged them to mention it and make it influence people. What ever happens we are still going to get it and that will include cheaper labour. They are going to make us cheaper anyway and have for some time now. One of the unusual aspects of the EU is the attempt to level standards of living across it. That eventually results in similar levels of pay. It's done by countries paying in and then given back on the basis of need ;) less EU running costs of course. The UK gets a fair bit back. Big hole really is that some countries in it were very probably allowed in for a source of cheaper labour but believe it or not some are going back as jobs are no longer as scarce where ever they came from. Interesting to compare that with the Commonwealth.

    He also seems to be a free market man or at least points out that the eu is protectionist. It is but how does a country protect itself from the larger players. Free market people just say don't and also don't protect your own businesses ;) other than banks of course. Net result is a drop in jobs in manufacture and eventually skill loss. :) And a large increase in electricians, plumbers, kitchen fitters and builders. Plasterers too. Dog walkers, the list goes on and on. What's behind free market people is economics. Nothing can be done about it so just accept it. The people who are getting the money from manufacture will get stacks of it and will want to invest it so will invest in the countries they are exporting to. They do but frankly I have never wanted to work in retail or services.

    His wiki page makes interesting reading, He is making money now and has his beliefs. Cameron reckoned he is a career psychopath. Might be correct. As things go politics is a pretty well paid job.

    The other aspect that crops up but I didn't carry on looking is the court of human rights. It's never really done anything that has had an effect on business. The real powers with money behind all business don't see it like that - it might. Curious thing is that the Tories provided the people to set that up. It is also another attempt to level playing fields - similar rights for all people living in the EU.

    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  8. PaulBlackpool

    PaulBlackpool Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your comments.
    I just put that link on here to give people an idea of the man who is in all the papers today and who may have such an effect on all our lives.
  9. PaulBlackpool

    PaulBlackpool Well-Known Member

    Well you made a lot more of it than I did. Maybe I should just stick to a little bit of DIY in my retirement.
    See what happens tomorrow!
  10. ajohn

    ajohn Well-Known Member

    There are some wonderful people involved in it. Most know about this one

    Not so many about this one who the Italians seem to be intending to evict from a monestery he bought to train people to influence others. Nationalism and religion. The EU does represent a bit of a problem to the USA and nationalism will break it up.

    Both famous for misinformation. Trouble is politics to some extent has always thrived on it. Modern forms of media are also ideal for spreading it. Newpapers often have a political bent. Other forms of media need something else and are probably far more effective.

    You may notice this from banks if you read it
    Banks said in May 2016 that his strategy during the Brexit campaign was to "bore the electorate into submission", in the hope that a low turnout would favour Brexit

    In short they will try anything and note that money also came from others.

  11. longboat

    longboat Well-Known Member

    I'd hazzard a guess that, dinkydo's last line pretty much sums up the fact that he hasn't been stuck with his head in the sand for the last thirty years and could see the direction of travel the European project was heading in from day one.
    To assume that all leave voters, or even many, were influenced by the rhetoric put forth at the debating stage alone is quite nieve. The writings on the wall and always has been ever since the EEC took its first steps towards implementing the goal of complete integration.
    If thats your thing, then good for you, but it ain't what i want and there's over 17 million other folks who feel the same way.
  12. dinkydo

    dinkydo Well-Known Member

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  13. dinkydo

    dinkydo Well-Known Member

    8C3BCBF8-EB44-427B-8213-A8512C6663EE.jpeg Yes I know not really a Brexit thing but thought I would put it in anyway
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  14. Muzungu

    Muzungu Active Member

    I can't say I have much time for Johnson, but he doesn't frighten me; but the thought of Corbyn as PM and Abbott as home secretary is a tad worrying to say the least.
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  15. longboat

    longboat Well-Known Member

    The Abbott better pull her finger out if she wants to retain the belt.
    This is some stiff competition.
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  16. Heat

    Heat Well-Known Member

    Apparently she has been at it again
  17. longboat

    longboat Well-Known Member

  18. ajohn

    ajohn Well-Known Member

    The media is already slagging Corbyn off so don't worry. They keep saying the same old thing which way do they want to go. They have always had the same answer, depends, they will try and negotiate a new deal. Not good enough for the media. Clearer now. Get a deal and then a referendum Accept it or stay in. No other questions on the vote. No complications. That's given the media a bit of a problem so they then say that might mean that Labour campaign against it's own deal which might be exactly the same as May's. So media ask about that and wonder why there isn't an answer other than we will put it to the people. So more stupid questions for as many labourites as they could find.

    Buying back privatised utilities? Actually there has been at least one other country that has done a bit of that for the simple reason it's not working. There debt levels were zero across the board when they were privatised. Water for instance is running at 51 billion quid now. Who's paying the interest - us. Most of the shares of all of them are not uk owned either.

  19. longboat

    longboat Well-Known Member

    You're certainly consistent in your output, ajohn. I'll give you that.
  20. longboat

    longboat Well-Known Member

    Eh, what the.?

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