Boris

[Bill Bog]

Some one took him to court over the claims and speeches around the Brexit bus. The judges just decided that they shouldn't get involved in politics. On the other hand adverts for other things if the claims are misleading can be taken to court but not politicians.

The only leader that has stuck to the same comments on it all is Corbyn. Initially not favouring another referendum but later down to what was going on in the commons probably the only solution. Get a deal and yes he will try for something different and then a referendum - accept it or stay in. If the commons can't settle that is the only way really. Others are just jumping on the various band wagons that are available in the hope of getting votes,

An election is likely to finish up with a mess and Farage stirring in the background, That may well result in another hung parliament.

John
-

Yes I remember that case. I think the court decided that if they were to judge on every fib told by an MP they wouldn't have time for anything else

I suppose Corbyn has stuck to the same line, sitting on the fence

 

[Bill Bog]

He has lied repeatedly in his personal life, not least to his wife and family.

I have never understood the opinion, often given with some pomposity, that if it is to do with a politician's personal life one shouldn't comment about it. Surely the standards one follows with those who are closest to you should, if anything, be higher than those to whom you owe nothing; and so are a reflection of how one would expect a person to behave to those who are strangers.

Of course all politicians dissemble to a lesser or greater extent; I expect that, but I would prefer to have a PM who does not tell such obvious lies (reasons for the prorogation of parliament). To my mind it lessens a person when they lie, I think most people feel the same when they know someone who is an habitual liar.

Yes there are lies and there are giant prkies. I think Boris will find out that lying to the queen was the latter. But the real problem is that he has clearly abused his power.

There's an even bigger lie with Boris though and that's that he doesn't really represent the people who support him. You only have to look at those in his hard-leave camp, and they all seem to want an unregulated economy where just about anything goes. Remove barriers to wealth generation, cut taxs, give the money to those in power and the rest can try and catch up or sink. It'll suit those who already 'have' and not those who are in greatest need of a leg-up. That's the biggest lie I think. When he rallies the people, he is really misleading them. He is doing what Trump is doing over there. Trump doesn't give a fig about the bulk of those who support him, he is just using them.

 

[Harry Stottle]

Looks like im talking to myself

Boris has support on this thread so I wonder what his supporters think about this? Harry, does it matter if he lies to get the job done?

Bill, what I don't understand why everyone is having a pop at Boris, he's just trying to bring Brexit to a close. Most people and businesses too just want Brexit over so that they can get on with their lives The real rogues in all this are the remainers led by that dreadful Miller woman and her rich backers who probably have vested interests in remaining.
Boris is quite rightly using every tool at his disposal to achieve what the voting public want. I think he'll achieve it even with the fictitious scare tactics of the remainers and the scandalous behaviour of the treacherous sacked Conservative MPs. I certainly hope they don't get the whip back and have to spend the rest of their miserable lives in the political wilderness

 

[Bill Bog]

I guess what you are saying is, Harry, it doesn't matter that he lies? Lies are an acceptable 'tool'? I agree with you that most people and businesses do just want Brexit over but I am not how how they want this done. I'm not usre if it's by lies. And if he can lie so easily, what else is he lying about?.

 

[Heat]

Same with Corbyn. Lies and evasion from him.
Labour Party is going steadily downhill with Corbyn, so Labour Leavers would be wise to back Boris.

 

[Joe the Plumber]

I heard a leave voter the other day interviewed on the radio. Although she wanted us to leave now, she had always voted, and would always vote, Labour.

The inference was that even if Corbyn was the reincarnation of Mao, Stalin or Hitler, she'd still vote Labour.

I expect most Labour leavers will vote for the Brexit Party. They simply cannot bring themselves to vote Conservative, even if to do so would be to get exactly what they want.

Anyhow, all politics exists only in our minds. We really need to stop worrying about it. I find watching Talking Pictures TV instead of the news is far more agreeable!

 

[ajohn]

Same with Corbyn. Lies and evasion from him.
Labour Party is going steadily downhill with Corbyn, so Labour Leavers would be wise to back Boris.

Corbyn has been pretty constant. You should listen rather than taking in news casters attempts to provide "good" news. His aim is another deal then a referendum - accept the deal what ever it is or stay in. C4 attempt to put spin on it is to call it a fudge. That came about because at that point they may campaign to either remain in or get out. It depends on the implications of the deal. It also avoids the current Tory situation cropping up again because some will want out and some will want in across all parties - answer we decide. That will worry the out at all costs lot for the simple reason that they know that it could go entirely the opposite way otherwise they would have already talked about another referendum. The problem they have is that they know a 3 1/2% margin on a referendum doesn't mean that opinions are still caste in stone or ever were really.

Corbyn wants to do a number of other things as well. One is pull back some of the privatised utilities for the simple reason that in competitive terms they just aren't working. Some will probably think that is crazy and where is the money coming from etc. It would easily be covered by what we currently pay for them. At least this way profit would go to more useful things especially as a number of them are in need of rather dramatic updates.

Boris is reckoned to have left wing tendencies. I wouldn't be at all sure he will be around for that long. Probably yet another scapegoat just like May. He's there because they think people will vote for him not for what he does.

John
-

 

[Heat]

Corbyn has been pretty constant. You should listen rather than taking in news casters attempts to provide "good" news. His aim is another deal then a referendum - accept the deal what ever it is or stay in. C4 attempt to put spin on it is to call it a fudge. That came about because at that point they may campaign to either remain in or get out. It depends on the implications of the deal. It also avoids the current Tory situation cropping up again because some will want out and some will want in across all parties - answer we decide. That will worry the out at all costs lot for the simple reason that they know that it could go entirely the opposite way otherwise they would have already talked about another referendum. The problem they have is that they know a 3 1/2% margin on a referendum doesn't mean that opinions are still caste in stone or ever were really.

Corbyn wants to do a number of other things as well. One is pull back some of the privatised utilities for the simple reason that in competitive terms they just aren't working. Some will probably think that is crazy and where is the money coming from etc. It would easily be covered by what we currently pay for them. At least this way profit would go to more useful things especially as a number of them are in need of rather dramatic updates.

Boris is reckoned to have left wing tendencies. I wouldn't be at all sure he will be around for that long. Probably yet another scapegoat just like May. He's there because they think people will vote for him not for what he does.

John
-

I do listen to Corbyn. Can’t stand the man to be totally honest. I think his past will always burden him.
He was never going to have that squeaky clean image that Tony Blair initially had.
Bit bizarre of Corbyn when asked if he supports Remain or Leave, for him to refuse to answer. He can’t be for both.
His denial of what he called Teresa May in Westminster was blatantly a stupid lie.

 

[Bill Bog]

Same with Corbyn. Lies and evasion from him.
Labour Party is going steadily downhill with Corbyn, so Labour Leavers would be wise to back Boris.

This thread is called 'Boris'.

Do you think it is ok for Boris to lie and be devious to get what he wants?

 

[Tony Goddard]

At least Lenin & Mao started out as honorable men trying to redress social injustice, power corrupted both and their visions of utopia fell into dictatorial, oppressive regimes as so often happens to well intended revolutions - Corbyn is just a nasty, power crazed left over from a previous age with a serious chip on his shoulder.

He has a particular gripe with public school boys, I went to a public school, I'm an electrician, I'm not a member of Jeremy's mythical illuminati like old boys network, because, unless you were at Eton, it doesn't exist, it's a myth. I keep in touch with my classmates, who are variously, a builder, a vicar, a potter, a criminal barrister, a GP etc. good chaps all, but they don't run some favour network!! Unfortunately the liks of Cameron & Boris, the cartoon public school nits give the rest of us a bad name!!

As to Boris, IF he lied to the queen then that is clearly wrong, but the queen, unlike her forebears does not intervene in politics at all (she has some latitude to, but has decided not to, fair enough) so I can't see why he would lie.

As to the leave bus, as a former advesrtising copywriter I can tell you with certainty there was no lie on it. The slogan was "We send the EU £350M a week <new line> Let's fund the NHS instead". The ammount of funding to the NHS is not stated, nowhere does it say let's give the 350M per week to the NHS, nor did I or any sane person think it read that. However it is a quality bit of copywriting that grabs and can be interpreted many ways, which in adland is a winner!

 

[ajohn]

I
Bit bizarre of Corbyn when asked if he supports Remain or Leave, for him to refuse to answer. He can’t be for both.

I've just explained why he doesn't reply and that is exactly why news casters keep asking him. They know he wont reply. He can't stick to what he has said and say he is either in or out. It doesn't matter anyway as far as he is concerned it depends on our vote when it's offered. So the media have another go and call it a fudge instead. If that doesn't work out they'll try something else. They are currently trying all sorts with Boris. Also giving labour party members who disagree with what will be the cabinet's policy if they are elected far more air time than those that agree with him. As far as the media is concerned it's "good" news. A hell of a lot of the initial out is down to the same style of reporting. What was really behind it was Cameron failing to get the EU to agree on us applying a cap on immigration. Farage stirred that up a lot in a pure racist fashion. Behind the scenes one real worry was people coming here that can't support themselves and in some instances getting better support than nationals. What people don't seem to realise is that this in many cases does not relate to people from the rest of the EU at all.

Fact folks a lot of people have been stitched up one way or the other which lets the lunatics and position seekers to come to the fore. It's called popularism - pick things that are bound to stir the population up and don't what ever you do explain the complications to people. If any real ones crop call it project fear. Nice term, it slips nicely of people lips just as Brexit does. The media loved both of those.

John
-

 

[ajohn]

At least Lenin & Mao started out as honorable men trying to redress social injustice, power corrupted both and their visions of utopia fell into dictatorial, oppressive regimes as so often happens to well intended revolutions - Corbyn is just a nasty, power crazed left over from a previous age with a serious chip on his shoulder.

He has a particular gripe with public school boys, I went to a public school, I'm an electrician, I'm not a member of Jeremy's mythical illuminati like old boys network, because, unless you were at Eton, it doesn't exist, it's a myth. I keep in touch with my classmates, who are variously, a builder, a vicar, a potter, a criminal barrister, a GP etc. good chaps all, but they don't run some favour network!! Unfortunately the liks of Cameron & Boris, the cartoon public school nits give the rest of us a bad name!!

As to Boris, IF he lied to the queen then that is clearly wrong, but the queen, unlike her forebears does not intervene in politics at all (she has some latitude to, but has decided not to, fair enough) so I can't see why he would lie.

As to the leave bus, as a former advesrtising copywriter I can tell you with certainty there was no lie on it. The slogan was "We send the EU £350M a week <new line> Let's fund the NHS instead". The ammount of funding to the NHS is not stated, nowhere does it say let's give the 350M per week to the NHS, nor did I or any sane person think it read that. However it is a quality bit of copywriting that grabs and can be interpreted many ways, which in adland is a winner!

Did you know that public schools are registered charities that gives them a distinct tax advantage and reduces the costs to those that use them. They are a hang over from the Empire and intended for the children of people who worked for outfits like the East India company etc. They do help each other as well even in the cheaper ones.

Your wrong about the bus and the speeches he made come into it as well. Gove was far more careful and stood back with a smile on his face.

John
-

 

[Tony Goddard]

Did you know that public schools are registered charities that gives them a distinct tax advantage and reduces the costs to those that use them. They are a hang over from the Empire and intended for the children of people who worked for outfits like the East India company etc. They do help each other as well even in the cheaper ones.

Your wrong about the bus and the speeches he made come into it as well. Gove was far more careful and stood back with a smile on his face.

John
-

I work a lot for public schools as an electrician, so am aware of the charity status, however due to this they are unable to claim VAT back, which pretty much balances out. One local bursar tells me they would welcome lifting the charity status as it would be beneficial to be able to do VAT and they would be better off.

I was at private school from 4 to 18, a mid range prep school and a mid range senior. I have never encountered any helping out amongst the old boys that you wouldn't find in the local comp. In fact I reckon the lads there have come off better, i'll give you an example, as boarders we came from all over, I have one old mate who now works for Rolls Royce in Berlin as an engineer, another is a GP in cornwall, another a general builder 200 miles away and one a barrister in London. we all do totally different jobs, plough different furrows, we catch up at reunions every few years or a coffee or beer if we are in the area, but largely it's a distant friendship.

Now my mate Chris, another spark who went to the comp down the road, where it seems most of his year group went in the trades knows all an everyone, can blag favours left right and centre, one of his mates from school is a GP too who returned to town after uni, and he seems to jump the waiting list at the local practice - I certainly don't think my education did me any favours in the favours department. All the elecution and deportment classes left us all with cut glass RP accents, mine does end up with me getting the mickey taken on site sometimes!

However, consider that every parent who pays for private, and many like mine scrimp and save for it, has the absolute right to send their little ones to a state run school at a cost of £5500 per year to the state (the standard senior school capitation), in effect by sending little Johnnie private they save the treasury the expense of his education.

Problem with Corbyn's ideas is they are not costed out, Labour never cost out their plans - Also he is all ready to scrap private schools, what about private healthcare? most surgeons spend half the week down the private hospital while NHS patients wait, if he is against private education, why not private health - I suggest it is because he has no need of a private school, but might just need a Harley Street quack sometime in the not too distant future.

 

[Heat]

This thread is called 'Boris'.

Do you think it is ok for Boris to lie and be devious to get what he wants?

Yes indeed! This thread (4 pages and still going) has the title Boris, but we have branched off on that long ago.
(Take a look back on each page to see if you can find much mention of the word Boris or link to the original post).

No, I don't think it is okay for Boris (or Corbyn or others) to lie or be devious, but I would hope a decent person would have the ability to be crafty in dealing with opponents.

 

[Heat]

I've just explained why he doesn't reply and that is exactly why news casters keep asking him. They know he wont reply. He can't stick to what he has said and say he is either in or out. It doesn't matter anyway as far as he is concerned it depends on our vote when it's offered. So the media have another go and call it a fudge instead. If that doesn't work out they'll try something else. They are currently trying all sorts with Boris. Also giving labour party members who disagree with what will be the cabinet's policy if they are elected far more air time than those that agree with him. As far as the media is concerned it's "good" news. A hell of a lot of the initial out is down to the same style of reporting. What was really behind it was Cameron failing to get the EU to agree on us applying a cap on immigration. Farage stirred that up a lot in a pure racist fashion. Behind the scenes one real worry was people coming here that can't support themselves and in some instances getting better support than nationals. What people don't seem to realise is that this in many cases does not relate to people from the rest of the EU at all.

Fact folks a lot of people have been stitched up one way or the other which lets the lunatics and position seekers to come to the fore. It's called popularism - pick things that are bound to stir the population up and don't what ever you do explain the complications to people. If any real ones crop call it project fear. Nice term, it slips nicely of people lips just as Brexit does. The media loved both of those.

John
-

I know the points you are making and agree with a lot of it.
Still no point whatsoever in Corbyn refusing to say what he personally wants, - Remain, or Leave?
Surely it would have seemed honest, rather than what has clearly been a dishonest attempt at pretending to be on the fence so he could maybe grab votes from both camps.
He is going to lose votes for his party

 

[Tony Goddard]

Sadly yes, I won't vote Labour now, and always have in the past - Lib dems look a bit of a mess too, even the remainers don't like the revoke article 50 without a vote plan - their guy got shot down on Question Time the other night - so Boris looks like the best of a rotten lot!

 

[Bill Bog]

At least Lenin & Mao started out as honorable men trying to redress social injustice, power corrupted both and their visions of utopia fell into dictatorial, oppressive regimes as so often happens to well intended revolutions - Corbyn is just a nasty, power crazed left over from a previous age with a serious chip on his shoulder.

He has a particular gripe with public school boys, I went to a public school, I'm an electrician, I'm not a member of Jeremy's mythical illuminati like old boys network, because, unless you were at Eton, it doesn't exist, it's a myth. I keep in touch with my classmates, who are variously, a builder, a vicar, a potter, a criminal barrister, a GP etc. good chaps all, but they don't run some favour network!! Unfortunately the liks of Cameron & Boris, the cartoon public school nits give the rest of us a bad name!!

As to Boris, IF he lied to the queen then that is clearly wrong, but the queen, unlike her forebears does not intervene in politics at all (she has some latitude to, but has decided not to, fair enough) so I can't see why he would lie.

As to the leave bus, as a former advesrtising copywriter I can tell you with certainty there was no lie on it. The slogan was "We send the EU £350M a week <new line> Let's fund the NHS instead". The ammount of funding to the NHS is not stated, nowhere does it say let's give the 350M per week to the NHS, nor did I or any sane person think it read that. However it is a quality bit of copywriting that grabs and can be interpreted many ways, which in adland is a winner!

This is a thread about Boris, but some people seem to want to have a pop at Corbyn instead. I can't stand the man either, but I wouldn't go as far as you. Mao is directly responsible for perhaps as many as 45 million deaths, and Lenin oversaw some serious butchery too but Corbyn is the nasty power-crazed one.

I am not bothered whether Boris lied to the Queen although I agree this would be very bad. I am bothered that Boris is lying to the constitution and to the people of this country.

 

[Bill Bog]

At least Lenin & Mao started out as honorable men trying to redress social injustice, power corrupted both and their visions of utopia fell into dictatorial, oppressive regimes as so often happens to well intended revolutions - Corbyn is just a nasty, power crazed left over from a previous age with a serious chip on his shoulder.

He has a particular gripe with public school boys, I went to a public school, I'm an electrician, I'm not a member of Jeremy's mythical illuminati like old boys network, because, unless you were at Eton, it doesn't exist, it's a myth. I keep in touch with my classmates, who are variously, a builder, a vicar, a potter, a criminal barrister, a GP etc. good chaps all, but they don't run some favour network!! Unfortunately the liks of Cameron & Boris, the cartoon public school nits give the rest of us a bad name!!

As to Boris, IF he lied to the queen then that is clearly wrong, but the queen, unlike her forebears does not intervene in politics at all (she has some latitude to, but has decided not to, fair enough) so I can't see why he would lie.

As to the leave bus, as a former advesrtising copywriter I can tell you with certainty there was no lie on it. The slogan was "We send the EU £350M a week <new line> Let's fund the NHS instead". The ammount of funding to the NHS is not stated, nowhere does it say let's give the 350M per week to the NHS, nor did I or any sane person think it read that. However it is a quality bit of copywriting that grabs and can be interpreted many ways, which in adland is a winner!

And that message on the bus was very deliberately chosen to be deceptive and Boris was challeneged on it directly and kept on claiming it was true. This was the theme in the whole campaign. There was very little honsty about anything they said they knew exactly what they were trying to do and it worked.

 

[Bill Bog]

I work a lot for public schools as an electrician, so am aware of the charity status, however due to this they are unable to claim VAT back, which pretty much balances out. One local bursar tells me they would welcome lifting the charity status as it would be beneficial to be able to do VAT and they would be better off.

I was at private school from 4 to 18, a mid range prep school and a mid range senior. I have never encountered any helping out amongst the old boys that you wouldn't find in the local comp. In fact I reckon the lads there have come off better, i'll give you an example, as boarders we came from all over, I have one old mate who now works for Rolls Royce in Berlin as an engineer, another is a GP in cornwall, another a general builder 200 miles away and one a barrister in London. we all do totally different jobs, plough different furrows, we catch up at reunions every few years or a coffee or beer if we are in the area, but largely it's a distant friendship.

Now my mate Chris, another spark who went to the comp down the road, where it seems most of his year group went in the trades knows all an everyone, can blag favours left right and centre, one of his mates from school is a GP too who returned to town after uni, and he seems to jump the waiting list at the local practice - I certainly don't think my education did me any favours in the favours department. All the elecution and deportment classes left us all with cut glass RP accents, mine does end up with me getting the mickey taken on site sometimes!

However, consider that every parent who pays for private, and many like mine scrimp and save for it, has the absolute right to send their little ones to a state run school at a cost of £5500 per year to the state (the standard senior school capitation), in effect by sending little Johnnie private they save the treasury the expense of his education.

Problem with Corbyn's ideas is they are not costed out, Labour never cost out their plans - Also he is all ready to scrap private schools, what about private healthcare? most surgeons spend half the week down the private hospital while NHS patients wait, if he is against private education, why not private health - I suggest it is because he has no need of a private school, but might just need a Harley Street quack sometime in the not too distant future.

Corbyn hasn't killed uncountable numbers of people but hes the nasty and powered crazed one and didn't even start of good he was always bad?

Public schools would be better off without their charitable status so they could claim back the VAT? and if you went to public school you are at a disadvatage afterwards becuase you can't call in favours like your state school mates?

Your name isn't Boris by any chance?

 

[Tony Goddard]

Corbyn hasn't killed uncountable numbers of people but hes the nasty and powered crazed one and didn't even start of good he was always bad?

My point is that Lenin & Mao started out trying to overcome an unfair and unjust feudal system by applying the ideals of Marx, they started with good intent, both were corrupted by power, and it all went to the bad can't deny that. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight when they started out, communism was a new, radical ideal - it has been proven again and again to be seriously flawed and unworkable and yet Corbyn seems to hang on to it's ideals, I'm not sure why, I have always been a labour voter and a socialist, but not a communist, you have to retain free enterprise and choice - the Chinese, although a communist state have embraced many capitalist concepts in trade and manufacturing which is why they are now so successful.

Public schools would be better off without their charitable status so they could claim back the VAT? and if you went to public school you are at a disadvatage afterwards becuase you can't call in favours like your state school mates?

I'm not saying I'm disadvantaged, but I don't feel I have any particular advantage over anyone else because I went to a public school - most of the people I know didn't go to public school yet still have good jobs, nice homes etc. and are well educated. I work as an electrician with about 80% of my work in schools, many of the state funded schools I regularly visit are incredibly impressive, with excellent facilities.