boundries

Discussion in 'Builders' Talk' started by BATCOMAN, Dec 3, 2006.

  1. BATCOMAN

    BATCOMAN Member

    Hi
    my neighbor wants to claim 2 foot of my garden. after 14 years they want their wall moved. claiming 2 foot the person doing the work has told them the wall is in the wrong place. can they take this back or because it has been on our side of the wall for 14 years is this now our land.
    anyone help please
     
  2. audi-evo

    audi-evo Active Member

    "my neighbor wants to claim 2 foot of my garden."
    surely it's his garden not yours.
    Why do you think you have a claim to it?
    If it is his at the land registry then it is his, he has bought it and owns it.
    If you want it so much then why not try to buy it from him?
     
  3. Mr GrimNasty

    Mr GrimNasty Active Member

  4. M.I.G.

    M.I.G. New Member

    it's your gormless neighbours fault for builing the wall in the wromg place to start with!
     
  5. M.I.G.

    M.I.G. New Member

    ps

    or even wrong place

    (they should put an edit facility in this forum)
     
  6. Willy Duwitt

    Willy Duwitt New Member

    If you cant sort this out amicably, and we dont know the background to all this, you may end up going down the legal route.

    In this case your best approach would be to use "adverse possession" as your argument. This basically means that you have adopted a piece of land not belonging to you and claimed it as your own, by fencing it in or incorporating it into your land. This has to have been in place for at least 12 yrs and there are also some other conditions. I'm not quite sure how this would be affected by the fact the it was your neighbour who actually built the wall as for "adverse possession" it should have been you that enclosed the land in question. He could probably argue that it was an ornamental wall and not a perimeter/boundary wall. Try this site for more info
    http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/

    If it goes as far as involving solicitors, I would suggest you do as much research as possible on the subject before appoaching one and then find one who specialises in land law.

    Hope that helps
     
  7. BATCOMAN

    BATCOMAN Member

    Thanks to you all for replying.
    a bit of background. we have been in our house 15 years.
    the wall was there when we moved in. Then 3 years ago the present neighbors moved in, then we had our drive blocked paved , by someone our neighbors knew. he is doing theirs in January and has told them that this wall is in the wrong place and they are now going to move the wall 2 foot across in there favor to where he states the boundary is, and he will have to take some of our blocks away to allow for this to happened wanted to know how we wanted it finished.
     
  8. Mr GrimNasty

    Mr GrimNasty Active Member

    If you haven't got them you can download your title docs. from http://www.landregisteronline.gov.uk/ (and your neighbours' too) Costs a few pounds. Typically the plans are 1/1250 though so accuracy to 2' could be difficult to judge unless boundary line supported by house wall/fixed feature etc.
     
  9. ringmain

    ringmain Member

    If you want my advice, let them have the land, unless you hate them.

    Get THEM to pay THEIR solicitors to draw up a legal agreement confirming the exact position of the wall, and that they have no further claim on your property. Get THEM to pay ANOTHER firm of solicitors to act for you.

    Adverse possession has pretty much been kicked into the history books. The Human Rights Act prevents you from claiming land that legally belongs to another human person.

    The Gardenlaw forum is excellent - and they will probably recommend you let them have the land!
     
  10. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    Adverse possession has pretty much been kicked into the history books. The Human Rights Act prevents you from claiming land that legally belongs to another human person. <<<


    I tend to agree with that, as opposed to land that is not registered with anyone.



    Mr. HandyAndy - really
     
  11. ProDave

    ProDave New Member

    Firstly how do YOU know that the land is his? Exactly you don't, you just have his say so.

    He has only lived there a few years. He would have first seen the house with the boundaries as they are, and agreed to buy it from the seller like that.

    Now he wants to move the boundary, claiming the land is his. It wouldn't by any chance be that the land is not quite wide enough to park a car, and by taking this 2 foot it does make it wide enough so he is just trying it on to make an off road parking space?

    Firstly I would ask his solicitor to show you PROOF that the land is his. Perhaps he does have a title plan that shows the land IS his in which case you will have to give in. This CAN happen. I bought a new house, and the fence (erected by the builder) was not at the edge of my boundary, so I successfully moved it to gain another 3 feet of land.

    If he does have proof then you will have to give in, though you can probably make him pay for actually moving the wall and making good afterwards.

    If he cannot demonstrate good title to the land, then IF it won't impact on your usage (i.e if it doesn't make your parking area too small) then offer to SELL him the land.
     
  12. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    Hi BATCOMAN.

    It's been pretty much said above.

    However, I would add - try and keep on good terms with your neighbour at all times. When you speak to them about this, explain that you fully understand their point of view and if they can show that the land really is theirs, then you will happily (through gritted teeth if necessary) let them have it back. But explain too that he must understand that you won't just hand it over without proof of possession.

    I understand that 'adverse posession' no longer applies in law and, let's face it, it wasn't exactly fair, was it?! (But check it out just in case...)

    I don't know if the Party Wall Act applies to all boundaries, including those outside the house but, if it does, it could be a great help. Basically, your neighbour has to enact this law and employ (and pay for) TWO party wall surveyors, one acting for him and one for you. Your neighbour can't start any work until an agreement has been arrived at between both parties. Also, I believe any work shouldn't be at any cost to you - redoing boundary wall, etc.

    Get all the facts together and phone a few specialist (land law, as Parp says) solicitors and try and choose one that'll do a free half-hour initial consultation. I think there's every chance that you'll get your answer in this half hour, but it might not be the one you want.

    Keep smiling :) Will the loss of this 2' be a disaster for you? If it really should belong to the neighbour, isn't it right that he should have it? Imagine if it was the other way around...

    If it ends up that you lose the 2', it's best it's done with you saying 'fair enough' to your neighb rather than wanting to scratch his car.

    (But be bludy certain he's entitled to it first, tho'...)
     
  13. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    Re-reading your second post, how bizarre that the driveway guy thinks the border is in the wrong place! What does he base that on?! Even if your houses are identical, on identical-looking plots, it doesn't necessarily mean that the correct border should be exactly down the middle. How is he such an expert on this?!

    Obviously, your neighb has to prove it.

    I can't see him having the driveway done in January; even with good will on both sides, this sort of thing can take months to sort out. He surely can't be expecting you to simply say "fair 'nuff - take it!"?
     
  14. Controlled Magic

    Controlled Magic New Member

    One other point; you moved in 15 years ago - I doubt the Land Reg were registering all properties then - and your neighbour more recently; they probably were by then. BUT! The land reg work on OS Maps and to features they see. The maps are accurate to +/- 1m. You say the wall was there when you moved in - that would indicate that your neighbours land registration will show he owns.........up to the wall.

    As others have said, if you are semi detached and the wall is not in line with the party wall then something is anomalous.....but it wouldn't mean that the previous owner of your house didn't buy it from his neighbour at that time.

    I had a neighbour that tried this with me, telling me that the Land Reg showed his boundary as straight and that, therefore, I should allow him to use a small section (about 10 bloody square feet!!) at the boundary between the fronts of our properties. Unluckily for him, in the hedge between us was a hoop top metal fence. The remainder of this fence was taken away 'for the war effort'......and I found a picture of our houses in 1918, showing the fences in place. I wrote him a letter telling him that, if he'd asked me, I'd have given it to him but that as he'd tried to strong-arm me, he could p* off!

    Try to keep on terms with your neighbour, but don't just roll over.

    All the best.
     
  15. audi-evo

    audi-evo Active Member

    how is it you have lived in your house for 15 years and the wall has been there for 14 years but was there when you moved in?
     
  16. Nozwaldo

    Nozwaldo New Member

    Howdy Batcoman,

    I'm a weekend builder, weekday land lawyer.

    Unless you live in Stafforshire Moorlands or Rutland, given what you say, i'd be very surprised if both properties aren't registered with HMLR. However, HMLR plans mean jack. they carry a statutory disclaimer that says they are only indicative of boundaries and not conclusive. Same with older plans on deeds, unless they show exact measurements.

    All claims for adverse possession turn on witness evidence; traditionally by the way of a 'statutory declaration' sworn by someone who has direct experience of the land/boundary concerned over the relevant period.

    For reasons i won't yet go into, 12 years adverse possession is still sufficient to make the land available to be re-registered as yours if you enjoyed that 12 years before 1st October 2003.

    The situation changes if you only count 12 after that date. you can lodge a claim, but the registered owner then has two years to get you off. if he doesn't you can still succeed.

    Human Rights law changed little. One EU Court case caused a temporary blip till English law got its head around it. Things changed due to the Land Registration Act 2002.

    Before you think any further get your diary out and tell us if you had 12 years before 1st October 2003 or not. i can then tell you where you stand.

    also, does anyone else have use of or access to the land; and what precisiely have you used it for?

    Nozwaldo
     
  17. Winkle

    Winkle New Member

    Re Adverse possession.
    Further to Nozwoldo. Having had dealings with the Land Registry.
    Possession must have been with the full knowledge(Overt) of the orginal owner.
    If the land is registered and it can be proved that the land has been incorrectly registered(can take up to five years)then compensation is paid by the Land registry. The compensation usually allows the land to stay with the longest possesor.
    Difficult to prove. For new owners.
     
  18. Nozwaldo

    Nozwaldo New Member

    It doesn't have to be with the owners full knowledge, but you're right that it must be overt - 'nec clam' is the latin for the principle (without stealth).

    HMLR will only pay compo where they concede that they have made a mistake. If the situation has arisen because of changes on the ground, then rectification of the Register is not an option.
     

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