Brexit explained simply

Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by Hans_25, Sep 28, 2018.

  1. Hans_25

    Hans_25 Active Member

    I understand some on here like talking about Brexit - for and against. Saw this which should keep you amused.

    Reluctantly I voted to remain, but I think the least worst option now would be a hard exit. The Chequers plan is a canine feast, committing us to some EU rules with no say in them which is the worst of both worlds. We're damned if we stay and damned if we leave.
    Allsorts likes this.
  2. Allsorts

    Allsorts Well-Known Member

    I agree - 'Chequers' is a pitiful compromise, leaving Britain close with trade ties, but pretty much weak on everything else. What's the point of that - it's worse than what we have.

    I also agree - a 'hard' one is better than any 'deal', but I suspect our reasoning differs...

    I'm 'happy' with a 'hard' one for the simple reason that it'll at least serve one purpose for humanity; it'll demonstrate to the rest of the watching world what many Remainers have been saying all along; a 'hard' one will almost certainly seriously damage the British economy, leading to - at the very best - a continuation of the austerity we've experienced for the past decade, and - at worst - a prolonged recession which will hurt the weakest in our society (ironically, those who are the most fervent Leavers). At the same time, this will give the wealthiest (ie the 'Leave' backers) what they've always wanted; a massive deregulation of the rules that control how our trade and economy should operate, a whopping cut in taxes that'll disproportionately target the wealthiest, a fall in our environmental standards and human rights, and - well - a Trumpian world.

    It's not really what I want, but every other option - other than a second ref - would serve no purpose.
  3. Hans_25

    Hans_25 Active Member

    You seem to have the view that a 'hard' one is better as it will teach the leavers 'a lesson' so to speak. I don't take that view, we want the deal that is the best for the country, but there are two trade offs - economic benefit (remainers reason for staying), and 'control' of our own destiny (leavers reason for leaving). These two are mutually exclusive. Staying in the EU gives us the first - a hard one gives us the second.

    The Chequers deal arguably gives us some short term economic benefit for trading off some level of control, however the lack of control is permanent and will come to bite us in the long term - if we're limited in the agreements that can be sought if we're tied into the EU rules to some extent. That's why I think a hard one is better than a bad deal, and Chequers is short term 'OK' but long term bad.

    What a hard one will show everyone, is exactly what the economic benefits of being in the EU are, but I think most leavers don't care so least at the moment.
  4. Allsorts

    Allsorts Well-Known Member

    No quite my reasoning, Hans.

    A 'soft' one - of any colour that I can see is manageable including Chequers - would only be a significant compromise, and will neither placate the Leavers nor Remainers. Ergo, the whole sorry situation will crawl along as it is now until the next build-up. Meanwhile the UK will be in a weakened state, on unfriendly terms with our closest allies, and the Foxes, MOggs and Johnsons will still be trying to pull the country their way - and that's towards Trumpland. All for their own personal gain.

    The UK will still be humiliated, would have lost a huge amount of credibility, and the world will look on agape; "They went through ALL that for NOTHING?!"

    My preferred outcome would be enough of the population and MPs coming to their senses as the truth and reality emerges ever more so - as is happening - and we vote to Remain.

    So, my second preferred outcome - for all sorts of reasons - is a hard one.

    That is not primarily to 'punish' those who in their ignorance and very basic understanding of the issue voted Leave, but certainly to show them that they made a whopping mistake, and guess who will lose out most? Yup - them. Certainly not Mogg et al; the least fortunate in this country can look on as Mogg et al get the country they want, and leave the divide bigger than ever.

    So, yes, it will hopefully teach them a lesson. They will have reaped what they have sowed. It won't have been any Remainer's fault.

    The main reason I'd opt for a hard one, tho', is so that the rest of the EU (and the world) will go "$£!^!" at the immediate consequences and hopefully back-track on the current populist, nationalist and far-right agenda that's creeping across the land.

    Yes, if the UK is going to be damaged, I would rather look long term and see more immediate damage occur so that the EU and the world can come to its sense and change direction to a much better place.

    After all, this is all about the type of world want for our children and their children. This is not just about the UK, it's far far bigger than that.

    How can I put this? I won't - I'll let the Latvian ambassador say it (in response to Hunt's truly ignorant comparison of the EU to the Soviet Union); "Soviets killed, deported, exiled and imprisoned [hundreds of] thousands of Latvia’s inhabitants after the illegal occupation in 1940, and ruined lives of 3 generations, while the EU has brought prosperity, equality, growth, respect.”

    That is precious to me, and I'll be damned if I'll support it happening. I mean, having the cesspit minds of the u-s on here determine our future? You havin' a laugh?
  5. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    DA, let's face it, you're preferred outcome is to have the UK kow- towing to the EU for ever.
    Tell me DA, how many people did the Germans kill and cause to be exiled, during WW2, ruining the lives of generations, all to promote the third reich and the fatherland ? A poor comparison by the Latvian Ambassador, who must have a very short memory, or didn't study history at school. Also tell me , how much does Latvia contribute to the EU (ohh noooooooooo they're not a net contributor,,, wow there's a surprise )
    You or the Latvian Ambassador want to bring history into it, then look at history.
  6. Allsorts

    Allsorts Well-Known Member

    Yell me, JJ, why are you supporting a cause that's also supported by all the neo-Nazi, fascist, despotic and far-right wing groups across Europe and beyond? 'Ronic, huh?

    Why are you nailing your colours to the cause that would have made the purveyor of the Third Reich ideology cream his pants in excitement? "Ze Gawds! Ze Engleesh ar doing vot I vant vithout me asking"

    Oops - I hope that ain't Germanist.
  7. Isitreally

    Isitreally Well-Known Member

  8. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    I bet DA doesn’t give a single thought to the Greek and their problems, brought on by the single currency. ( It’s also a fair bet, he doesn’t know who practically own Greece now )
  9. Jord86

    Jord86 Well-Known Member

    Who's DA? (Don't worry) Actually, having befriended several Greek people over the last few years whilst visiting their islands, and having a long debate with the local politician and restauranteur fairly recently ,is the actual honest most simple explanation of their current annihilation, is due to the government allowing businesses and people to pay their own taxes relative to what they supposedly earned, so please be honest(!). You can imagine what ensued off the back of that.
    Allsorts likes this.
  10. longboat

    longboat Well-Known Member

    Can you for once at least try and be a bit impartial, DA?
    I do understand that you're an advent supporter of an all encompassing, EU super state, a 'USE', so to speak. Ain't that ironic?
    Just say it, man.

    "We all have cesspit minds" if we don't share your dream of a federal European ideal?
    That's what you want, isn't it? So, stop trying to pretend you don't, and come clean with your 'true'(apologies for the dirty word) agenda.
  11. Allsorts

    Allsorts Well-Known Member

    The Greek situation was brought on by the Greeks. And they know it.

    It would probably be a fair point to suggest that 'Brussels' should have kept an eye on them at an earlier stage (tho', of course, that would undoubtedly have raised cries of 'INTERFERENCE!" and "LOSS OF GREEK SOVEREIGNTY" from the obvious suspects), but it was sheer economic mismanagement, over-inflated wages, money-for-nothing, a distortion of taxes, etc., all finally brought to a shuddering head by the CC of 2008.

    Oh, yawn - what am I doing?! Trying to talk sense?! What's the point :rolleyes:
  12. Allsorts

    Allsorts Well-Known Member

    Anyhoo, talking of the financial crisis of 2008 and the resulting austerity, what a PHEW that we are finally, 10 looong years later, about to bring that nasty period to an end. We've just about paid it off!

    Oh hang on - that would have been if the Brexit vote hadn't happened.
  13. Bob Rathbone

    Bob Rathbone Well-Known Member

    What, austerity is coming to an end? which planet do you live on? we are as poor now as we were at the start of the process, no progress has been made whatsoever. We must leave the EU, fudging it now will make us appear weak in the eyes of our European partners, don't forget that they need us as much as we need them but they have a point to make to prevent others think twice before leaving. We should quit with a hard exit, then start negotiations on a trade ONLY deal, which was the deal Ted Heath signed up for 40 years ago.
    Isitreally likes this.
  14. Harry Stottle

    Harry Stottle Active Member

    Brexit and austerity are in no way connected. Remainers are clutching at straws to try to blame Brexit when the real culprit is the last Labour Government under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown who left the British economy is a dreadful state. Unfortunately it's now down to Conservatives to put things right and they're taking the flak for something that's not of their making.
  15. Bob Rathbone

    Bob Rathbone Well-Known Member

    Harry, I am not trying to link the two, they are separate issues. Blair & co are responsible for the mess over austerity, the Tories had bad timing coming in when they did, but it was the idiot Cameron who is responsible for the mess of Brexit, or not, as he did not have a plan to leave.
  16. Allsorts

    Allsorts Well-Known Member

    Austerity isn't at an end - not by a long chalk.

    My sarcy point is that had the Brexit vote not gone to 'Leave' in the way it did, then the estimate is an approximate 2.5% additional growth - and our debts from 2008 virtually repaid.

    So, thank you for prolonging austerity (yes, being sarcy again) and also thanks for your wish for creating even more damage by a 'hard one'.

    That's a double whatsit. You really have it in for the UK economy, don't you.
  17. Allsorts

    Allsorts Well-Known Member

    The very threat of Brexit - ie ever since that vote, and as a direct result of it - has held back our economy and greatly reduced investment (part of the reason for the current near-full employment is the lack of expansion for creating new jobs).

    You can whistle as much as you want, Harry, that this ain't so, but your mouth will go dry before anyone takes you seriously.
  18. Allsorts

    Allsorts Well-Known Member

    I'm sure the Greeks said a lot of stuff at the beginning, and I'm sure a lot of them are still saying it now. They are still with us, tho'. Only one idiot country is inflicting self-harm.

    It seems pretty true that - hugely painful tho' it was and is - Greece is in a better place now to go forward than they were before. A bit like the UK when they first joined in the Single Market; we were forced to compete on a level playing field and that hurt and shook up many British companies who had to greatly up their game. But many/most did so and improved vastly as a result.

    That's the proper answer.

    I resisted the urge to just say "what a painfully ignorant and glib remark, IIR."
  19. Isitreally

    Isitreally Well-Known Member

    The greeks cant afford to leave, if they could do you honestly believe they wouldn't given the choice.
  20. Broon

    Broon Active Member

    To continue and throw the mess of our countries economy at Labours doorstep is just silly. I agree Blair and Brown totally screwed the pooch but the Conservatives have been in charge for quite sometime and now and must share the blame. They have done nothing to really help us and have missed their own targets. I don't think a labour government would of done any better but to continue to put blame solely on labour is ridiculous.

    To call Cameron an idiot for not having a plan if leave one is also ridiculous. He was a firm remain on the EU and only gave the referendum putting us in to the mess we are now to squash UKIP and get the tories re-elected. This vote was not done for the country. Surely tho the ones fighting so hard for leave should of had a plan not 'we got what we wanted now you sort it'.

    To be honest I don't care how we leave. We will take a hit either way and will do what we need to and build ourselves back up.

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