Brexit. What do you think you will lose?

fillyboy · Mar 30, 2018

btiw2 said: ↑

But if you all enjoy tugging your forelock and bowing to your inbred European rulers - hey! It’s a free(ish) country. I can respect that. It’s just not for me.
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I'm delighted that you've seen the light btiw. The king is dead, long live the king.

longboat · Mar 30, 2018

Devil's Advocate said: ↑

Anyhoo, back to the thread...

1) We need each other.

Being part of the EU we have a strong voice when it comes to things like, ooh, imposing sanctions against Russia. Being a member will have us contributing to decisions that will affect the future of Europe, our immediate, democratic neighbours after all.

(I wrote that pre-Brexit vote).

How would the EU have responded to the recent events in Salisbury had we done as many had threatened and just ‘left’ the EU, telling them to ‘go whistle’ for their payments? How would the EU have responded if it no longer was the ‘EU’ but what many on her have openly wished for – individual, divided countries?

2) When bad things like recessions happen, historically people move to the extreme ends of the political spectrum; far right wanting to pull up the drawbridges and start flogging people, and the far left wanting screw the rich and scatter the money amongst the poor. People are drawn to 'extremes', and that is why the likes of UKIP, the BNP, Trump and Corbyn start to get mass followings. We should ‘Remain’ to demonstrate that we don’t lose out minds during tough times like these, to show the world that we remain what the most of them believes us to be; resilient, fair-minded, decent true Brits.

It simply does not work when countries swing to the political extremes; it is just a gut reaction, often with alarming consequences. It didn't work for Greece, and it won't work for anyone else. What it does do is lead to a more fractured society (see what's happening in the US?), and antagonism between countries too (see what’s happening between the US and just about everybody?). That ain't good, folks. We should be uniting with as many like-minded folks as we can, for the greater good, and showing the rest of the world how it can be. The EU is an excellent model for the world, possibly the best.

3) This will make many cynics spit out their tea & digestives, but the EU is responsible for some wonderful human rights laws that we are obliged to follow. Yes, the UK was instrumental in drawing up many of these, and you could argue this won’t change if we leave, but there is also reason to believe that this could very well change once economic pressures come to bear on their divided countries; if our economy starts to suffer (as it almost certainly will), do you really think the current government will improve worker’s rights further? Or even improve environmental issues if it threatens to cost us? Or food standards (what did Fox say about chlorinated chicken?) Or even human rights should the same folk who voted Leave start chanting about equality and PC gorn mad? (As they do). These rules and laws are all working towards making us a more decent, equal, fair & healthier society and this will be at risk. If the EU fragments, then these laws will likely be the first victim as competition drives us against each other.

Society is moving the right way. Think back only a couple of decades to when smoking was banned in public areas. Many of the u-s (I suspect the same ones) were up in arms about this. Today you'd be considered a nutcase if you tried to suggest a person could smoke in front of someone else - a pariah. I do not believe that the right-wing bunch who are largely driving Brexit have these sorts of values at their core.

4) The right to move around our fellow EU countries with complete freedom. That is wonderful. These folk are our friends. We trust each other.

5) A united Europe is surely going to be a safer and more secure place that a divided one? If the likes of Trump ever became president (this was also written pre-Brexit. My gawd…), and - lord help us - a loon like Farage PM here (ok, no chance), the same could happen in other countries who go it alone. Jingoism becomes rife, and protectionism too. The excellent relations we currently have with our partners could be lost. (Don’t forget the lessons from history).

In the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries, wars broke out between European countries at the rate of around 3 new conflicts per year. Think about that. And it’s not that we humans have changed – we are just as capable of committing atrocities today as these people were back then. It’s civilisation wot’s changed, and that can continue to progress forwards, stand still or even go backwards. I would argue that civility in the US has recently taken a significant backwards step, and ditto amongst some in the UK.

Let’s also acknowledge a further truism – many of the u-s on here also support what Trump is doing over there. I have no doubt WHATSOEVER that they would have voted Trump had they been American. And Le Pen had they been French. Many u-s on here have made their support for these sides perfectly clear. Be fully aware of what it also means to vote ‘Leave’. You only have to look at the backers of all these campaigns – Bannon, Banks et al. And the news currently coming out about Cambridge Analytica is of no real surprise. (You can undoubtedly add Putin to that list of Bannon and Banks too, even tho’ they didn’t work together – they were still chasing the same outcome. What a crew, eh?)

How do you think Europe’s security is best assured? Through NATO with Trump as the main contributor and almost certainly held over a barrel by Putin? Yes, sadly. Would the Uk leaving the EU increase or its security risk, ours and theirs? Almost certainly decrease. Should we care about the EU being more vulnerable to the likes of Russia? I suspect some on here genuinely think it’s what it deserves.

6) Negotiating strength by being part of a much larger organisation. Lord Patten says it well: “Independent countries do fewer deals than the EU and the deals are not as good as those made by 28 countries acting together, with the bargaining power that being a market of more than 500 million people brings.

The EU has done well over 50 such deals, Canada 15, Australia 15, Switzerland 38 (the majority through Efta). The EU deals are more comprehensive and extensive than those made by single countries. Recent EU deals have covered services, for example, with Canada, Singapore and Vietnam…

The Global Britain touted by some pro-Brexit ministers (as though we had not been global for centuries) is not only hypocritical, it is also political and economic nonsense. One problem is that the ministers who talk about these fictitious trade deals have never negotiated one. The closest they have come to a trade deal is the checkout at Waitrose.”

7) I like the EU. I like being a part of it. I like being united when it’s with like-minded peoples. And if they aren’t yet fully like-minded, then I like to share our good bits, to influence others with our good bits so that they ultimately are. I like being part of a much bigger thing, when that thing is good and civilised. I like being a Scot, a Brit, a European, a human (stop it). I hate jingoism, HATE it with an intense passion as I do any other similarly misguided sense of entitled superiority – it is a state of mindless irrational ignorance (being a jingoist, not being filled with hate). I hate the thought of Great Britain breaking up, for that will surely happen if we leave the EU. These are all backwards steps.

8) Remaining will almost certainly shorten the length of our self-imposed austerity. Had we not voted Leave, we would almost certainly be better off right now. We were amongst the top of the G20 in economic growth, now we are near the bottom. The growth in our economy has almost certainly been hit as a direct result of just the vote. Coming to our senses would help address this.

9) It would remove the very real risk of increased confrontation in Ireland. Didn’t anyone watch the movie’s trailer I posted? That is a very scary place. There are plenty of people there waiting for an ‘excuse’ to go back to killing.

10) It’ll increase the likelihood of the breakup of our union – that would be terrible.

11) Remain will increase our global standing as part of (one of the top three) of the EU.

12) If we do leave, we’d better be ready – ie strong enough – to fight our corner over areas like financial centres, car production (without being artificially propped up by the government – as May has promised Nissan (and, I bet, others), medical and chemical research, green energy and other technologies.
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For those who rapidly attributed a TLDR approach to this post, here's a summary;

Deleted member 33931 · Mar 30, 2018

Isitreally said: ↑

DA posts this.

Keep your reply sensible, rational, reasoned, measured and - if at all possible - quantifiable.

Then posts this.

View attachment 23105

????
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Read that amusing poster again, IIR - and see that it actually says things as they actually happened. That's why it's extra funny. That is how your representatives behaved.

Go whistle.

btiw2 · Mar 30, 2018

fillyboy said: ↑

I'm delighted that you've seen the light btiw. The king is dead, long live the king.

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Very good Filly

Perhaps someone could start a “Brexit Banter” thread to keep the chatter out of Chippie’s thread? That seems more civilised than just swearing at people for off topic chatter.

I like chatter and banter, but it wasn’t the purpose of Chippie’s (failed?) experiment.

Deleted member 33931 · Mar 30, 2018

fillyboy said: ↑

I'm delighted that you've seen the light btiw. The king is dead, long live the king.

Click to expand...

Help me here, Filly. I'm trying to visualise what's going on as you contemplate these satirical retorts.

Do you chuckle as you press the 'Post Reply' button? If so, you are alone.

damn, I replied

Deleted member 33931 · Mar 30, 2018

Yes, I chuckled.

Deleted member 33931 · Mar 31, 2018

It's amazing the difference that one little letter can do.

EU economic growth 2018: https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=...psy-ab..0.3.198...0i13k1j0i67k1.0.xH7MOGLibmM

UK economic growth 2018: https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=...c.1.64.psy-ab..0.4.278...0i13k1.0.adwnJGkhIPk

btiw2 · Mar 31, 2018

Devil's Advocate said: ↑

View attachment 23107

Yes, I chuckled.
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Please DA. You’re good at setting up new threads. Chippie tried to achieve something clean in world of unpleasant sniping[1]. Can we not take this elsewhere?

[1] until he snapped. Then, not so much.

Deleted member 33931 · Mar 31, 2018

longboat · Mar 31, 2018

Credit to the man.
He kept up his pretentious act for far longer than I ever expected .

Such a relief to have the bona-fide chipps back.

facilities · Mar 31, 2018

Devil's Advocate said: ↑

Alas poor Chippie, I knew him well.

And will again
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joinerjohn1 · Mar 31, 2018

Still no condemnation from DA regarding the monthly move to Strasbourg by the EU. Even though he originally mentioned waste in the EU. ( still costing £1.56 billion per year, and that figure will rise)

chippie244 · Apr 1, 2018

btiw2 said: ↑

Errr just realized I’m polluting the honourable intent of Chippie’s thread by going off topic.

Sorry Chippie.
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That's ok, I think they're parasites too.

Deleted member 33931 · Apr 1, 2018

CHIPPIE!

chippie244 · Apr 1, 2018

Good to see this post is still here and unsuprised that the u/s are still distorting facts to try and prove their point.
Somethings don't change and the deliberate obtuseness of certain posters is one of them.
What happened to the positive brexit thread? Did they manage to ruin their own thread? That's why the u/s shouldn't be allowed nice things

fillyboy · Apr 1, 2018

chippie244 said: ↑

What happened to the positive brexit thread? Did they manage to ruin their own thread? That's why the u/s shouldn't be allowed nice things
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No, that remained intact, the leavers all behaved well. You screwed up your own thread, then started another thread insulting the other camp and got yourself banned.

chippie244 · Apr 1, 2018

As I said the u/s are still distorting facts

fillyboy · Apr 1, 2018

chippie244 said: ↑

As I said the u/s are still distorting facts
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Hmm, who got banned?

chippie244 · Apr 1, 2018

As I said I would, the threads are still here and the u/s attacked this one from #10 and then lied about it.
It's almost like you didn't want to win the referendum and now don't know what to do but be disruptive.

HarDeBloodyHarHar · Apr 1, 2018

I think bremainers should 'shut up and go away'!

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