Building Work Question

Discussion in 'Builders' Talk' started by inapickle, Dec 6, 2016.

  1. inapickle

    inapickle New Member

    Hello, I am looking for advice and help with a situation I am having at the minute. I employed a builder to do some work on my garden wall last year. Basically they where to alter my existing boundary wall by making it shorter, attach a brickwork pillar to the end and create two other pillars with the intention of hanging gates on them. I told them where I wanted things to be and how big I would like them. I have attempted to have my gates installed this week and in the process of installing them the freestanding pillar has failed to hold the weight of the gates. I have spoken to both the builders and the gate fitters who are basically blaming each other. The gate fitters have said the builders should have built the pillars with steel and concrete filling and the builders have said they weren't informed to build the pillars like this and the gate fitters should have used gate posts. I did not inform the builders to build the pillars with concrete and steel nor did I inform the gate fitters to use gate posts as I didn't know the brickwork wouldn't be able to take the weight and thought it would look nicer hanging from the brick. Who is to blame for this? Is it the builders fault for not building reinforced brick pillars or the gate fitters for attempting to install them without attaching gate posts? Any advice on where I stand and what steps to take next is greatly appreciated.
     
  2. KIAB

    KIAB Super Member

    What size gates

    Your partly blame in my opinon, you should have looked at the installtion requirement for the gate, either via the web, supplier or gate installer, & you provided the builder with the info regarding installing gate, dimensions, weight,& requirements for hanging the gate.
    Builder fufilled his part by building the gate pillars,but he should have built them,& reinforce piers with rebar & filled them with concrete,(I would always have done this for a normal gate) depending on pier size this would have supported a normal gate.
    But, if the gate was super heavy, then I would have used steel box section for attaching gate to, then built brick pier around it, & fill with concrete.
    If the builder knew the size & weight of the gate, then he should have known the correct piers to build.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
    Jord86 likes this.
  3. inapickle

    inapickle New Member

    Thanks for your response, not what I wanted to read but glad to have your input.
     
  4. KIAB

    KIAB Super Member

    I've built piers for gates as requested by customer, only for them to change the type & weight of gate half way through the job or even when completed.
    Like from a 4' hand gate to a 9' offset 5 bar gate, it's totally different pier needed to support it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
  5. inapickle

    inapickle New Member

    I had the building work done prior to having the gates made. On the builders 'Scope of Works' it says 'build 440mmx440mm solid brick pillars' which is what they have done. To be fair I was pleased with the work prior to it failing to hold the gates, they did a good job of what they did just what they did didnt do what I needed it to :( No one from the gate fitters advised me that the pillars would be unable to hold the weight of the gate. They just blamed the builder when it failed saying it should've been built with steel and concrete. I would have hoped between the two of them they would've told me if my plan was destined to fail.
     
  6. Rob_bv

    Rob_bv Active Member

    The builder has built what he said he would and what you agreed to; if the gate is large enough to pull apart a 440x440 brick pier then the gate fitters should have allowed for posts. Unless it's rendered, it should have been pretty obvious to them what the piers were made of when they turned up to measure
     
    KIAB likes this.
  7. KIAB

    KIAB Super Member

    Your clearly to blame, you didn't a requested concrete/rebar gate pier, just a solid brick pier, which is totally different, which what the builder gave you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
  8. KIAB

    KIAB Super Member

    No, if pier cap on pier, then gate fitter wouldn't know, it wasn't reinforced.
     
  9. inapickle

    inapickle New Member

    Thanks for both of your input so far. Would still like more opinions if anyone else cares to share. The pier had bricks laid sideways on top so you couldn't see what was in it but there wasn't a pier cap as such.
     
  10. Rob_bv

    Rob_bv Active Member

    I'm thinking that if it's heavy enough to pull apart a large brickwork pier, even if the centre were reinforced it may damage the facing brick. At the very least, I would have expected an experienced gate fitter to ask the OP whether or not it was reinforced.
     
  11. KIAB

    KIAB Super Member

    Fair point.:)
     
  12. When did you specify the building work? Before or after choosing the gates you wanted?

    The only way its the builders fault is if he didnt build what you specified.

    When you chose the gates, did you ask, or were you given the weight of the gates and how they needed to be supported?

    If you asked for the building work, then chose the gates, guess who has to carry the can?
     
  13. OH MA GAWD! I think I disagree with KIAB :(

    I personally don't think it's up to a layman like inapickle to specify the construction methods of a gate pillar.

    He wanted 'gate pillars' and called in a builder.

    "What do you want?"

    "A pair of gate pillars, please, yo size by yo size and this far apart, made of brick, ta muchly."

    "Ok, that is ALL the info I require 'cos I can read minds and I don't need to ask anything else like - urm - what size gates you plan to fit, or what they will be made of or anythink. Cool - let me get on..."

    ...later...

    "There you go - a pair of gate posts! What? You say they've failed?! But YOU didn't tell me how strong to make them - boo-hoo..."



    Really? Surely the builder - if told they were to be GATE posts - should have enquired about the spec of these gates? Why should a layman know about 'steel bars' and sh**?! He just wants GATE POSTS! To HOLD UP GATES!


    But, what a quandary... :(

    This is going to be unpleasant. The only 'easy' resolution - ie for one party to be given the 'blame' is if the pillars AS BUILT should have handled the weight of the gates AS SUPPLIED.

    In other words, if these brick-built posts of that size should normally have been able to handle gates of that size and construction. Ie - it should have been ok.

    Then, that fact that they didn't means that either the pillars weren't built properly (not that they were under-spec'd) or else the gate fitters were clumbsy in installing them.

    See if you have Legal Protection in your household insurance. Or contact CAB.

    This is going to be messy... :(
     
    Astramax likes this.
  14. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    The fact its a pair of gate would suggest weight, in the instance the gate hinges should be attached to a RSJ in the middle of the brick piers, this RSJ should be concreted in to the ground at least 600mm deep on a pad twice the size of the brickwork going on them, the brickwork then built around it.

    So i too agree that only you are to blame for the lack of communication to the builder involved.
     
  15. inapickle

    inapickle New Member

    The building work was done prior to choosing the gates. I didn't ask about what sort of pillars the gates would need because the building work was already done and to be honest I didnt know you could build different types of pillars. The builder didnt ask me about the gates, I told him something along the lines of 'eventually I'm going to put gates up'. Nothing about steel was ever mentioned until the gate fitter said it to me.
     
  16. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select


    This would be relevant if the OP told the builder there were gates being fitted and what type of gates, otherwise it's just two piers forming an opening.
     
    Jord86 likes this.
  17. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    That's not really good enough, "sometime along the line" isn't specific enough to bring blame upon the builder, this is one your going to have to learn from.
     
  18. inapickle

    inapickle New Member

    Thanks for all of your input.
     
  19. TheMorg

    TheMorg Active Member

    Assuming the pillars didn't fail immediately, who's liable when they collapsed a week later onto the baby going passed in the pushchair :D I'd assume the gate fitters for not making adequate checks the pillars can support the weight.
     
  20. inapickle

    inapickle New Member

    I believe the pillar began moving when they attached the gates, I was in work when they where here and came home to a demolished pillar which they said they had too because it was too dangerous to be left. The pillars where built early December last year and seemed safe enough to me. I am not sure what you're implying with your post, I would be liable are you saying? As is, the two remaining pillars are still standing, would it be advisable to demolish these two pillars as well? I was hoping to save these and come up with a solution for how to make it safe once I knew where I stood with whos fault it was.
     

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