Can I purchase an electric hob which plugs into a 13 amp socket.

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Glenbeau, Jan 11, 2014.

  1. Glenbeau

    Glenbeau New Member

    I am just not used to gas as I have never cooked with it before. I think the main problem is that because the gas cooker and hob in the house I purchased had a condemned notice on it. I did get it checked out, but it still worries me as the flames seem to reach very high in the oven. To replace my gas cooker with a new one would be a much easier option, but I just don't want to make a mistake.
     
  2. Glenbeau

    Glenbeau New Member

  3. Glenbeau

    Glenbeau New Member

    Snezza,

    I checked out the link and it seems ok, but before buying I will try to find an electrician to quote for a new supply for the oven and hob. I know that would be the safest option, I did book an electrician but he did not turn up. A plumber who quoted me for some other work, told me he thought it would be possible to run both off my 13 amp plugs, but he would check. Hence my original question on this site. Thank you for taking my question seriously and trying to help

    Glenbeau
     
  4. snezza30

    snezza30 Member

    Glenbeau,

    Shop around to find the best price. You may even find a local company near you that can supply AND fit a Hob like this at a very competitive price. Try a local kitchen showroom that deals with Siemens appliances, and you may be pleasantly surprised.

    I often have people like yourself come into my Showroom wanting to do a similar thing.

    Hope this helps.

    Regards, Snezza.
     
  5. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    Gas produces water when burnt so with gas a extractor is required which sends both water and other combustion produces outside so it creates a draft around the house due to the fan and can stop you using other gas open flue appliances because of the depression caused by the fan.
    It has an open flame which just can't be safe.
    It lacks many of the safety features on modern hobs, it does not auto shut down after set time if left on by accident, it does not shut down if pan gets too hot, it has not got auto boil then simmer feature, and does not have child locks on the knobs all which are now found on the modern electric hob. Before induction came along it was faster, but compared with induction it is slow. It has one redeeming feature you can use a wok. I will admit woks designed for electric are too heavy.
    We back in 1979 when we moved into the new house looked as cookers and my wife came to the conclusion it was too easy to tip up a pan on the fingers of a gas hob so selected electric ceramic OK then it was slow compared with gas but much safer. Three years ago it was changed to one that at first glance looked the same. I will admit the shelves in the oven are poor and can if not careful come right out. However other than that it was much better. Oven has elements top, bottom and back with selector switch I really do like the door closed grilling only have to turn food once.
    At the same time my mother also got an induction and I will admit that one had a huge flaw. Touch controls. Water spills disable whole cooker and my mother in wheel chair could not see the controls plus they were too slow to operate. With knobs if pan starts to boil over quick twist and power off no need to touch the pan. But with touch controls it took multi touches to switch down area by which time the pan had boiled over. Touch controls may look clean and it seems as if cleaning will be easier but with knobs less spills so less cleaning.
    I am sure if today some one invented a gas hob it would not be allowed in the home. It is only because of tradition it's still allowed. As for the oven the whole idea of energy control rather than temperature control must be flawed.
    One huge thing we have noticed with the use of an induction hob is the kitchen is cooler. Energy goes direct into the pan not into the room so less sweat in the food so reduced salt!
     
  6. Walter System

    Walter System Member

    Interesting. Is a ring final circuit a fused spur off the ring, or a radial to the appliance?
     
  7. Walter System

    Walter System Member

    So, this 13A hob. Can it be on a ring with fused spur connecting it up? I assume the 2kW rule is an appliance via a 13A plug.
     
  8. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    There are two ways of introducing a spur on to a ring. You can either branch off the ring at one point in the same size cable to a fused spur, then wire from the spur to the appliance. Or, you can wire the fused spur directly on to the ring circuit and then spur to the appliance. To my knowledge, and I stand to be corrected, there are no hard and fast rules as to whether an appliance needs to have its own point of isolation. This seemed to have been introduced as some kind of kitchen fashion in the 80's where spurs and switches above the work top started to appear as a ready means of switching off integrated appliances where the socket might be awkward to get to. But a plug and socket can still be used just as easily and effectively if sited appropriately. Unfortunately, as tends to happen, people start to see spurs and switches used in this way and form an opinion that it must be carried out that way, whereas it is just one way of doing it.

    Spur to an appliance or spur off a ring amounts to one and the same. :)
     
  9. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    If I may answer your question to MGW. The rule is to avoid loads of 2kW or more introducing high current at one point on the circuit over long periods of time. A 3kW kettle is only on for say 2 or 3 minutes at a time, whereas, a hob could be on for an hour or more at a time. This is why 3kW immersion heaters are on separate circuits. Yes, they would work perfectly well if plugged in on a 13A socket but the circuit would quickly overload when other appliances were plugged in. A dedicated 32A radial circuit wired in 6mm2 has been used successfully and safely for many years now to serve cookers and hobs. It is better, IMHO, to wire a socket on to the cooker circuit and plug the oven in to it rather than plug it in to a socket on a ring circuit. Cookers, ovens and hobs do not belong on sockets on ring circuits. They belong on their own cooker circuit where two appliances can run quite safely for long periods of time without affecting any other circuits.
     
  10. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    Thank you unphased I do agree. I have to say I also think tumble driers should have their own dedicated radial circuit as they take so much power for so long. With an oven once temperature is reached it will cycle on and off the same with washing machine, and dish washer although over 2kW it is only drawing power for a short time.

    The hob is a bit hard to qualify. With a element than there is nothing to stop one having the hob switch on full for an extended time. With induction very different lift off the pan and it auto switches off. Beer making likely the biggest demand where 40 pints are put to the boil which takes some time. But with a pint of water the hob is not on very long.

    Personally I feel with a kitchen ring supplying a 13A induction hob is not really a problem. But in my house the original design had all sockets in the house on the same ring this would clearly be a problem.

    When my mothers kitchen was fitted I warned the installers that the house really needed a rewire and once they touched the original wiring they could be opening a can of worms. Answer was easy a SWA cable around outside of house feeding a kitchen consumer unit with all kitchen stuff from that. There is always a way around the problem.

    Where the problem arises is paying the LABC because it's a new circuit if not done by a scheme member. But not even sure if it is a new circuit one can argue to new Part P rules until the cows come home and still have no 100% answer.

    The 2kW rule is in the appendix so not sure if really a rule and also states:- "This can generally be achieved by:" clearly leaving it open for other methods to stop it exceeding the current carrying capacity for an extended period. Where the first socket is more than 5 meters from the consumer unit my calculations show it would be hard to overload either leg. Only where sockets are very close to the origin is an overload possible. Which returns me to kitchen ring. In the main with a kitchen ring there is a fair bit of cable between first sockets and CU.

    But to be certain one has to test. Loop impedance meters, RCD meters, and insulation meters are expensive and clearly very important to ensure it is really a ring and so in real terms it is often cheaper to get an electrician than DIY if, and this is the big if, you are going to comply with BS7671. And in Wales Part P also means unless you use a scheme member there are also huge LABC fees to pay. So if you want to comply with rules get an electrician it's as simple as that. And if your not going to comply with the rules does breaking a few more really make much difference?

    If either I broke the rules and installed a new circuit with a 10mm feed to new cooker or broke the rules and ran the cooker off a 13A socket I would do the former every time. However I do have the test gear so I do know my work is safe.
     
  11. Walter System

    Walter System Member

    Some good stuff on this thread. So this 2kW "rule". An appliance, such as 3kW hob, or oven, should not be on a 13A plug - it should be a fixed appliance on a fused spur?

    The mention of a kitchen CU. In one job, there was a kitchen ring and a number of fixed appliances, oven, microwave, warmer, fridge, dishwasher, boiler. There were four cables running to the kitchen from the CU, the two from the ring and another two. This meant that all four could be joined up as one radial supplying a kitchen CU with all appliances and small kitchen ring taken off this sub-CU. The supply cables would have an mcb sized to suit, probably 40A, on the main CU. Would combining all the four 2.5mm cables to supply the kitchen CU be OK? What is the earthing on a sub-CU? The same as a main CU?
     
  12. Glenbeau

    Glenbeau New Member

     
  13. Glenbeau

    Glenbeau New Member

    Snezza,

    I will check out local showrooms, as although I would love to buy that hob, it is a bit expensive for my budget. I did not realise how difficult it would be to even quote for these jobs, as it is not a complete kitchen, just a new sink, tap and cooker. However, I am determined to stick with it and get these jobs done, so thank you for all your help and advice.

    Regards, Glenbeau
     

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